a civil thread on Israel and the Middle East

[Suleiman]

Please, stop the shizzle.

People in general are idiots, not people from a certain country.

I am disappointed. I thought that having been involved with ‘Rock Against Racism’ The Sisters may have chosen to boycott Israel.

Still, to those going - have a good one.

Leftist box? (Chuckles).

Al

[euphoria]

Please, stop the shizzle.

People in general are idiots, not people from a certain country.

I am disappointed. I thought that having been involved with ‘Rock Against Racism’ The Sisters may have chosen to boycott Israel.

Still, to those going - have a good one.

Leftist box? (Chuckles).

Al

I soon get disappointed if this thread constantly goes off-topic. I could answer a lot, but regarding boycotting...Andrew has been extremely critical of George W and still has done no less than 44 gigs in the USA during the last two years. So I don't see how one could come to the conclusion that they should boycott their fans - anywhere.

[bismarck]

I don't really want to add wood to the political fire in the thread, so I'll simply say: Bravo, Gollum's Cock and inescapable_truth.

[Bartek]

Please, stop the shizzle
People in general are idiots, not people from a certain country.

I am disappointed. I thought that having been involved with ‘Rock Against Racism’ The Sisters may have chosen to boycott Israel.

Still, to those going - have a good one.

Leftist box? (Chuckles).

Al

what a bunch of nonsense. they not attacked Palestinian for being Palestinian.

and damn make separate thread form this kind of discussions, please.

[euphoria]

make separate thread form this kind of discussions, please.

That would probably be a good idea, yes. I certainly do not want to shut down discussions about Israel or whether the Sisters should play there, but they should take place in another thread. I am convinced that this thread will soon be flooded if people cannot let their steam off elsewhere.

On-topic: I am also convinced that this date never will appear on the Live news page, because that could probably get the band into trouble or jeopardize the Beirut gig. Would be interesting if someone with a Myspace account could ask Ben or Chris to confirm this one.

[Bartek]

you really think that they already know something about that ?

and of course on my previous post should be "for" not "form"

[dinky daisy]

Please, stop the shizzle.

People in general are idiots, not people from a certain country.

I am disappointed. I thought that having been involved with ‘Rock Against Racism’ The Sisters may have chosen to boycott Israel.

Still, to those going - have a good one.

Leftist box? (Chuckles).

Al

I soon get disappointed if this thread constantly goes off-topic. I could answer a lot, but regarding boycotting...Andrew has been extremely critical of George W and still has done no less than 44 gigs in the USA during the last two years. So I don't see how one could come to the conclusion that they should boycott their fans - anywhere.

Indeed. Art goes through all boundaries. Just as long The Sisters don't play on the 'Israel Government Party', i don't see any reason to blame them. In this light, they still aren't Riefenstahl.

[Ozpat]

and damn make separate thread form this kind of discussions, please.

Yes please!

[Petseri]

This thread is split from this one. I hope that it was split with the proper threads heading to the right places.

Try to keep it civil.

[psichonaut]

tell i'm not civil....but i would throw there an atomic bomb to cut the delete the problem once at all

[eotunun]

Please, stop the shizzle.

People in general are idiots, not people from a certain country.

I am disappointed. I thought that having been involved with ‘Rock Against Racism’ The Sisters may have chosen to boycott Israel.

Still, to those going - have a good one.

Leftist box? (Chuckles).

Al

Look at it like that: Being in Beirut, the Sisters will attract odd young people with odd taste for Rock'n'nRoll and drum machines.
Then, in Tel Aviv, Sisters will attract odd young people with odd taste for Rock'n'nRoll and drum machines.
On both sides of the fence these odd young people will realize that they have a lot in common with the so called enemy. They eventually might party excessively together. That would bring the fence down abit.
I can't thinkof any better way of defeating racism than that. Playing rock festivals with a politically correct name is a nice thing.
Going to areas between which there is hostillity and show the people on both sides they party at the same occasions and basically are the same folks and friends you yet have to meet is so much more.

Those sheepherders that ran away from Egypt back then, those blokes who didn't really have a clue of what the Pharao's astrologist explained, they are dead and composted. Let the dead lie.

My own (probably rather unposh) philosophy doesn't decide between good and evil, it decides between constructive and destructive. I found humans basically able of being utterly constructive as long as they omit to be good. Especially when they bring about the John Wayne or Scheich Jassin kind of goodness.

For the high proliferation rates in Palestine: Prior to world war II germany had a similarly high rate of young men without much purpose in life. An investigation made by a german philosopher (I think that was his profession, not sure though!) showed that mainly a high quantity of un-needed young men is what makes a society aggressive..
And it seems Jews are those young men's favourite scapegoat. Otherwise there'd be no need for the state Israel.

[EvilBastard]

Look at it like that: Being in Beirut, the Sisters will attract odd young people with odd taste for Rock'n'nRoll and drum machines.
Then, in Tel Aviv, Sisters will attract odd young people with odd taste for Rock'n'nRoll and drum machines.
On both sides of the fence these odd young people will realize that they have a lot in common with the so called enemy. They eventually might party excessively together. That would bring the fence down abit.
I can't thinkof any better way of defeating racism than that. Playing rock festivals with a politically correct name is a nice thing.
Going to areas between which there is hostillity and show the people on both sides they party at the same occasions and basically are the same folks and friends you yet have to meet is so much more.

It's a nice thought, and one I wish we could apply to other places too. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen. The majority of young people on both sides already seem to know that they're the same - any number of young Israelis used to hop over to Beirut before the 2006 war to party.
The problem is that the governments of the respective countries (just to make sure I'm understood here, my dislike of Israel and her actions starts and ends with the government of the country, and does not extend to her citizens except in specific instances where those citizens do unpleasant things, not does it encompass actions of adherents to judaism unless, as before, those actions are specifically unpleasant) are so caught up in the dispute (and in both Israel and Lebanon the government is in thrall to certain extremist elements whose causes are best served by perpetuating the conflict) that they can't or won't look for a solution.
If you deny young people the opportunity to listen to particular bands, or own cars, or get an education, or have a fridge, they will eventually rise up (as they have in other places) and tear the government down. Young people in Israel and in Lebanon don't enjoy living in a climate of fear, not knowing if someone's going to blow them up as they sit in a cafe with friends. Sadly the government doesn't care very much what they think. Only when there are massed demonstrations against the government elements (refusal to do national service, for example, or protesting against the actions of Hizb'allah) will there be a change.

Perhaps the answer is to promise them a massive tour of headline acts when things change, but until then restrict them to UB40 and Chris de Burgh..?

[Ozpat]

This thread is split from this one. I hope that it was split with the proper threads heading to the right places.

Try to keep it civil.

Thanks!

[Bartek]

thank you

[GC]

@Evilbastard

I believe that Israel is a democracy. The majority of the voting population chose to be lead by this government.

Israel (or so I've been told) has also the press with the greatest degree of freedom in the world. By freedom I also mean openess/criticism ea. Israeli people are thus intelligent/informed enough to choose a government which is most fitting to their predicament. Thus the government does reflect the country

(I don't know which point I'm trying to make here, I just thought I'd make one.)

[psichonaut]

@Evilbastard

I believe that Israel is a democracy. The majority of the voting population chose to be lead by this government.

Israel (or so I've been told) has also the press with the greatest degree of freedom in the world. By freedom I also mean openess/criticism ea. Israeli people are thus intelligent/informed enough to choose a government which is most fitting to their predicament. Thus the government does reflect the country

(I don't know which point I'm trying to make here, I just thought I'd make one.)

DEMOCRACY?...quite like the south Afrika 25 years ago...

[EvilBastard]

@Evilbastard

I believe that Israel is a democracy. The majority of the voting population chose to be lead by this government.

Israel (or so I've been told) has also the press with the greatest degree of freedom in the world. By freedom I also mean openess/criticism ea. Israeli people are thus intelligent/informed enough to choose a government which is most fitting to their predicament. Thus the government does reflect the country

(I don't know which point I'm trying to make here, I just thought I'd make one.)

True, it's a democracy. However, because they have a system of proportional representation (which "New" Labour promised to bring in 10 years ago in the UK and surprise sur-fcuking-prise have failed to deliver), coaltion partners can assume more weight than voters. Thus it is that groups like the Shas party (led by a man who believes that homosexuals and lesbians are sick people ), which advocates steering Israel towards theocracy, is able to exert exagerated influence on government policies.

[JeffDub]

tell i'm not civil....but i would throw there an atomic bomb to cut the delete the problem once at all

after reading this, I wish someone would throw an atomic bomb over your bedroom actually...

[psichonaut]

tell i'm not civil....but i would throw there an atomic bomb to cut the delete the problem once at all

after reading this, I wish someone would throw an atomic bomb over your bedroom actually...

he would find something for his nose

[EvilBastard]

tell i'm not civil....but i would throw there an atomic bomb to cut the delete the problem once at all

after reading this, I wish someone would throw an atomic bomb over your bedroom actually...

This reminds me of a story I once heard. It seems that god is getting mighty sick of the middle-east situation and decides to do something about it once and for all. So he calls Yassir Arafat and Benyamin Netanyahu (tells you how old this story is!) to a meeting.

God: Ok, guys, I'm really getting tired of watching you squabble over this land. So, I'm going to give you each an opportunity to tell me what you want to do, what's going to make you happy. The only caveat is that you cannot ask me to banish people from any part of the territory, ok?

Arafat and Netanyahu agree.

God: Right, now because the jews are my chosen people, I'm going to let Netanyahu go first. Now then, Benny - what's it going to take? What would you have me to to protect the people of Israel?

Netanyahu: Easy - just build a big wall all the way around the country. That way we can keep all the terrorists out and be protected from anyone who would harm us.

God: That's it?

Netanyahu: Yep, that's it - that's all we need.

God: Right then - I shall build a big wall all the way around Israel. Now then, Yassir - what do you need to protect the people of Palestine?

Arafat thinks about this for a moment.

Arafat: Ok, but before we start, can you tell me a little bit about this wall?

God: It is as high as the sky, no-one can get over it. Its foundations are as deep as the oceans, no one can tunnel underneath it. It is made of the strongest material ever created, you cannot drill through it, break it, or destroy it. It shall protect the people of Israel for a billion years.

Arafat: Any breaks in it at all?

God: Nope, it is a solid unbroken wall fashioned by my will to protect my chosen people.

Arafat thinks a little more.

Arafat: So, we're talking about an impossibly high, impossibly strong wall here, right? No breaks, one solid construction that goes all the way around Israel, even the coast?

God: Yep, that's right.

Arafat: Right, then. Fill it with water.

[psichonaut]

[mh]

has anyone here ever been to Israel actually ?

Yeah, I've been there, and in one of the Bad Parts too (West Bank/Palestine/Jerusalem). I saw a lot of barbed wire, machine guns on every street corner, a wall being built to separate Israelis from Palestinians (sound familiar, anyone?), paranoid border guards, gas masks being handed out from the backs of vans, utterly squalid living conditions, flashing lights in the distance at night, "Israel welcomes American bombers" posters, and a hell of a lot of decent ordinary common folks like you or me just wanting to get on with their lives.

I seriously don't know enough about the historical or political situation to form any opinion, personal or otherwise, but I've a gut feeling that in that particular part of the world things have been so badly screwed over the millennia that no simplistic "solution" is ever gonna work.

And I think about those ordinary folks too...

[the_inescapable_truth]

Can you believe the guy above? He admits to not really knowing anything, but makes a snide remark about Israel building walls. This is the precisely the kind of jumping to conclusions I'm talking about. You'd build walls to in such a situation too I'm sure!

I think what I find annoying about the use of the term 'apartheid' is that it really clouds the issue and stops any legitimate criticism from being made. What really is racism after all? It is an inherent hatred of a different colour/tribe regardless of their actions or politics. That is to say in South Africa the blacks were hated because they were considered to be an inherently inferior race.

So we can see the term is disingenuous as this is patently not how the Israelis view Palestinians. Put it this way: you don't need to tell the average Jew why racism is a bad thing. Six million people slaughtered due to real racism kinda puts things in perspective a little.

By using the term you are only doing disservice to those innocent Palestinians who have died. We owe it to them to uncover the real reasons why the restrictions are in place. Why the walls? Are we curtailing the rights of innocent Palestinians unfairly? Who is to blame? These are all legitimate questions.

The biggest threat to peace in the Middle East remains Hamas or perhaps, more worryingly, Iran getting their hands on a nuclear weapon.

Shalom. Salaam. Peace.

[sunshine]

Israels biggest threat is that the majority of lands surrounding them want to wipe them out. Without comprimise.

It's pure Zionist propaganda, and you're buying into it.

I believe that Israel is a democracy.

Oh gosh! And you must strongly believe in the US democracy as well?!

And yes, Zionism IS racist, it is! It values Jews over all the "goys". It is racism, or rather nazism!

[Bartek]

nice, nice strong words been said.
words that stopping a dialogue, real dialog.
so Zionist it's racism, and that's what Ahmadinezad said about Israel is a words of peace and love ?

historical background it's so complexioned - read something about that, from at least two, three different, the best will be opposites, source and than make your judgment.

and to be clear i don't know much, as much to make a opinion.