BNP opens mouth, inserts foot. Again.

[weebleswobble]

Mark, I would guess the largest immigrant workforce nationality are the Irish? I really don't know, but it would make sense.

I'd have guessed the Chinese (although there may be a lot of 2nd or 3rd generation folks involved there).

surely it is this lot

[DeWinter]

No, it hasn't

"Related to this is the effect on wages. While immigration was found to deliver a small gain in the wages of the highly paid, it has a slightly negative effect on the wages of the lowest paid, as many migrants compete for relatively low-skilled jobs. Any negative effect for people earning little more than the minimum wage must be taken seriously."

House of Lords disagrees, I'm afraid. So again, explain to these people why it's such a good thing for them, and if you can't, can you blame them for wanting it stopped? Oh, and before anyone accuses me of banging the drum for the BNP, I'm fairly sure a large proportion of these low-skilled are from already established minority groups. You can read it here, if you like..

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /82/82.pdf

[lazarus corporation]

There are more British workers who work abroad in the EU than non-British EU workers working in Britain,

Sorry for interrupting the discussion for a second, but do you have a source on that info?
My impression until now was that Britain had a deficit to all other nations in the EU when it comes to migrating workers (I wouldn't be surprised if the EU workforce in London alone amounts to a whole million) and that the British people migrating into other EU countries were mainly retired people buying a house in France or Spain.

It was widely reported in the news a month or two ago - I didn't bookmark it so can't supply you with a URL.

[euphoria]

It was widely reported in the news a month or two ago - I didn't bookmark it so can't supply you with a URL.

Ok, this is what I found at
http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/pdfs/Eu ... /BP4_9.pdf

British workers in the EU
[]

8 The number of EU workers in Britain is thus three or four times the number of British workers in the EU, depending on whether you take the EU born or those who are still EU nationals. Reasons for this imbalance may include limited language skills among British workers, relatively low unemployment rates in Britain in recent years and the fact that wages here are generally higher than in most EU countries.
16 February 2009

There was a paragraph before that dealing with "posted" workers, where the ratio was the other way round - probably that figure was what the news back then referred to.

Oh well, now I'm going to drink some left over Belgian beer miraculously found deep in my fridge

[Big Si]

The C**ts were in Argyll Street today handing out leaflets

[markfiend]

I've seen an alarmingly large number of "vote BNP" posters on my way to and from work over the past few weeks.

[Big Si]

I've seen an alarmingly large number of "vote BNP" posters on my way to and from work over the past few weeks.

Aye, West Yorkshire-Lancashire is a bit of a "Heartland" for them is it no?

[silentNate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usd8cgju ... re=related

[DeWinter]

I remember reading a while ago a theory that the reason sex offence convictions are so low is because the public perception of a sex offender is heavily biased in favour of a caricatured creep who bears little relation to what seems like a perfectly normal man in the dock accused.
I think something similar might be what's happening with the BNP, certainly they're no longer the bogeymen they were even five years ago.

The main parties and the media have to start taking them on in public, and drop the "no-platform" policy. The internet has pretty much rendered it useless now anyway.

What doesn't get mentioned, is that not so long ago Jack Straw upheld a ruling that the Chagos Islanders had no right to resettlement on those islands because they were not "belongers", but 7th generation immigrants. It does make Labour look ever so slightly hypocritical.

[Erudite]

It gets worse - the BNP is setting up a youth movement, part of which will involve weapons training!

Also caught their "nice" version of the Muppets on Have I Got News for You, wherein puppet gives account of Boudicca's fight (the historic one, not our Claire) against the Romans and ends with the information that she was white.

As much as a man of my literary talents could be expected to formulate an intelligent response, the one that springs immediately to mind is absolute fucking cunts!

[boudicca]

Also caught their "nice" version of the Muppets on Have I Got News for You, wherein puppet gives account of Boudicca's fight (the historic one, not our Claire) against the Romans and ends with the information that she was white.

I saw that myself... I thought the puppet said "and Boudicca was RIGHT". Well of course I thought, I always am. Hearing what I want to hear there I think

Though I am white as well (just a bit)

[stufarq]

I thought it said "white" too.

They keep presenting this horribly reasonable front, even to the extent of saying that the old immigrants were so much better than the current crop. Thankfully, they can't help themselves from screaming "whites are best!" and showing themselves up for what they really are.

[Erudite]

It's a fundamental problem of free speech that you can't deny these people the right to express their hateful opinions. If you do, you're no better than they are. Of course, like the Nazis before them, should they ever gain power, the BNP will be the first to deny everyone else the right to free speech and will no doubt dismantle the democratic apparatus that placed them in power in the first place.
One can only hope more moderate voices will speak out, but the current MP expenses scandal will, if anything, only increase voter apathy and the likelihood of right-wing extremists gaining power through the back door.

[markfiend]

the current MP expenses scandal will, if anything, only increase voter apathy and the likelihood of right-wing extremists gaining power through the back door.

I wonder whether this is a deliberate aim of whoever it was that leaked the expenses allegations.

[Erudite]

the current MP expenses scandal will, if anything, only increase voter apathy and the likelihood of right-wing extremists gaining power through the back door.

I wonder whether this is a deliberate aim of whoever it was that leaked the expenses allegations.

Hard to say, but with the choice between Labour and Tory no choice at all I'm really going to struggle to come the general election.
My current Westminster MP is a Lib Dem with a sizeable majority, and I may well go for the status quo, although my heart won't be in it.
But vote I will, because people died for my right to do so, which is something that should never be taken for granted.

[markfiend]

Oh indeed.

My local MP is a Labour guy and I've actually corresponded with him a fair bit, he's a decent enough sort.

It might seem a bit cynical to some, but at least if there's no-one I actively want to vote for there are damn sure to be people I want to vote against -- the BNP for a start.

The European elections coming up so soon are a worry in terms of the BNP; the higher proportion of the vote they get, the more they'll be able to press for government funding. (Indeed if they get any MEPs elected, I think they'll get money from Europe too.) And I'll be damned if I want any of my taxes to go to that shower.

[abridged]

These idiots are everywhere. A man gets beaten to death by sectarian thugs using a Rangers - Celtic match as an excuse whose knowledge of their own culture dosen't go much beyond a football shirt. These are the people Combat 18 and the like are targeting over here. It figures.

[DeWinter]

It's a fundamental problem of free speech that you can't deny these people the right to express their hateful opinions. If you do, you're no better than they are. Of course, like the Nazis before them, should they ever gain power, the BNP will be the first to deny everyone else the right to free speech and will no doubt dismantle the democratic apparatus that placed them in power in the first place.
One can only hope more moderate voices will speak out, but the current MP expenses scandal will, if anything, only increase voter apathy and the likelihood of right-wing extremists gaining power through the back door.

You may be very right, but here's the problem. Labour have already introduced all the apparatus for a police state. They have made us the most spied upon people outside of North Korea. They have politicised the police, and civil service. They have used legal semantics to break their own manifesto commitments. They've introduced DNA databases and soon we can all welcome our shiny new I.D cards.
But I think at the moment the three main parties are talking up the BNP, to make sure people vote for them to stop the BNP getting in. They have about 10% of the vote in certain areas, and about 4% nationally. They are less a threat than the Greens to the status quo.
I'll hazard a prediction and say the real time to worry will be a few years into Cameron's almost definite leadership. When people realise the Tory party will carry on down the same route New Labour have started, then people may well turn to them.

[markfiend]

And I called you authoritarian the other day

I agree with you substantially here.

The problem is exacerbated by the perception that those in power consider themselves to be above the law; a perception which is certainly not easily dispelled given the current MP expenses scandal. The combination of this with the increasing police statism of both the main parties in the UK does not present a hopeful outlook IMO.

However, I struggle to see how this can play into the hands of the BNP, which is surely the party most likely to institute an actual police state without any democratic checks (assuming they had the chance) -- as opposed to the gradual erosion of liberties we're currently experiencing.

Incidentally, I think that the Liberal Party are missing a trick big-style here. If they presented a traditional liberal-with-a-small-L position in the right way, they could pull the rug out from under the increasingly authoritarian Tories and Labour.

[stufarq]

Incidentally, I think that the Liberal Party are missing a trick big-style here. If they presented a traditional liberal-with-a-small-L position in the right way, they could pull the rug out from under the increasingly authoritarian Tories and Labour.

The sad problem here (and I speak as someone who has pretty much always voted Lib Dem because they genuinely represent moderation. And because they got John Cleese to advertise them just as I was becoming politically aware) is that the Lib Dem currently has no effective leadership. I mean, does anyone actually know who the current leader is? (Clue: believe it or not it isn't Vince Cable.)

[DeWinter]

And I called you authoritarian the other day

I agree with you substantially here.

The problem is exacerbated by the perception that those in power consider themselves to be above the law; a perception which is certainly not easily dispelled given the current MP expenses scandal. The combination of this with the increasing police statism of both the main parties in the UK does not present a hopeful outlook IMO.

However, I struggle to see how this can play into the hands of the BNP, which is surely the party most likely to institute an actual police state without any democratic checks (assuming they had the chance) -- as opposed to the gradual erosion of liberties we're currently experiencing.

Incidentally, I think that the Liberal Party are missing a trick big-style here. If they presented a traditional liberal-with-a-small-L position in the right way, they could pull the rug out from under the increasingly authoritarian Tories and Labour.

I know! I'm amazed too!

I think our current M.P'S genuinely do not grasp the scale of what's happened. Their credibility is shot to pieces now. And to add icing to the Marie-Antoniette style cake, their response to it has shown just how glaringly out of touch they are. From what I read, the general opinion among M.P's is that if their expenses are curtailed, their pay should be raised!
So I don't think the public can be blamed for ignoring them when they say "Whatever you do, don't vote for that lot!". The CofE is also less than credible, considering some of Williams recent escapades and goofs.
I'm assuming the BNP will say "They say we might bring in a police state, but look, they already have! How can you believe what they say about us on this, or indeed, any other matters now?", and they would be right, I fear. I'm waiting for the Euro expenses to be revealed with interest.

By the by, did you know Mr Blair's expenses were shredded the minute he left Parliament? So we've no way of finding out how he amassed that massive property portfolio he now has!

[markfiend]

Oh don't even go there with Euro expenses Private Eye have been barking up that tree for years with little success.

I'm not sure about Tony Blair's money, after all, Cherie is a successful barrister; by all reports £250,000 pa would be a bad year for her.

[the_inescapable_truth]

From what I read, the general opinion among M.P's is that if their expenses are curtailed, their pay should be raised!

Nobody can argue with this surely? It's an incredibly difficult job and they are running the country after all and if that shouldn't be well paid job I don't know what should be! £60,000 or whatever it is really is a paltry amount for they have to do... And to state what should be glaringly obvious if you pay them a crap salary you'll get (even) crappier people. Anyone who says they should do it for the public good and not for the salary will be suitably mocked and told to live in the real world.

And their credibility is shot to pieces now?

[the_inescapable_truth]

The BNP don't worry me. The British people are too sensible as a whole to fall for their nonsense. I do genuinely believe this.

Saw this on Reddit: This BNP leaflet popped through my letterbox today and I can't help noticing they're not real people. Funny

[markfiend]

The MPs are being pilloried over accusations of wrongdoing.

Consider this people: if you were accused of fiddling your expenses at work, would you expect to be sacked on the spot, or would you expect to have some kind of hearing?