Heartland

... under the gun, under the gun, everything under the gun ...

Absolutely timless.

Being645 wrote:... under the gun, under the gun, everything under the gun ...

Absolutely timless.

Timless or timeless?

well there was no Tim at the time afaik

AdrenaChris wrote:well there was no Tim at the time afaik

I knew you would appreciate my humour James!

Believe it or not, my boss just said "Under The Gun"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I living for love? Get real!

On account of Bricheno's parting some time before UTG, I propose this track be categorically branded - with a red hot iron - as "timless"...

BillyBadBreaks wrote:

Being645 wrote:... under the gun, under the gun, everything under the gun ...

Absolutely timeless.

Timless or timeless?

hell ... of course ...

Rise891 wrote:I think the second half of the song is some of the best stuff AE has ever written.

A truly brilliant indictment of the way so many women think and speak it platitudes when it comes to love. The female character in this duet has no idea what the male speaker needs. None. One suspects she doesn't even think it is necessary to inquire as long as she spews trite cliches. His anger and islolation is palpable.

If someone could point me in the direction of other brilliant lyrics, I'd appreciate it.

Edmogirl wrote:If someone could point me in the direction of other brilliant lyrics, I'd appreciate it.

"Home of the Hit-Men" comes to mind

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"Home of the Hit-Men" comes to mind

Are you sure it's brilliant? Or are you sure it's only good for a joke? Do you know what it means? Do you care what it means?

You are so undemanding...of yourself. But i'll charge 10 euros to tell you why.

Edmogirl: As in "the unexamined life is not worth living" -kinda way? But i'm not as misogynistic as you perhaps - i think rather the fault for the alienation lies in both (non-)participants. Like, again, in Romeo Down (though in that for entirely different reasons). Maybe the man is even running away from something. He sings the "cliches" with her in the beginning, after all. And cliches, too, are cliches for a reason. It's true they can be repeated having forgotten, or never having even known, the original intent behind the cliche, but i rather think there is some truth expressed in such things often enough. As in "are you living for love?"
It's only when the meaning is gone that it turns into a cliche.

Problem with this kind of thing really is i never know how deep one should go into it, where the writer's intentions end.

itnAklipse wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"Home of the Hit-Men" comes to mind

Are you sure it's brilliant? Or are you sure it's only good for a joke? Do you know what it means? Do you care what it means?

You are so undemanding...of yourself. But i'll charge 10 euros to tell you why.

It'll cost you 12 to get an answer from me.

PayPal only, info @ fgg dot be

IZ.

Edmogirl wrote: A truly brilliant indictment of the way so many women think and speak it platitudes when it comes to love. The female character in this duet has no idea what the male speaker needs. None. One suspects she doesn't even think it is necessary to inquire as long as she spews trite cliches. His anger and islolation is palpable.

... ... yeah, a fine cliché of the "female character" ... she's only a platform for his self-abuse ...
Are you living for love? ... And what becomes of it as soon as f**k and things are settled.
A contract in a mutual interest ... or a street with a deal ? (to quote other lyricists) ...
... and of course, it's only men who are in a trap like this, besieged by women ...

Can't really tell how much I disgust this approach ...









And yeah, "his" anger and his "isolation" are palpable ... everything under the gun, everything under the gun .... under the gun .... under the gun ... under the gun ...

Everything - under the gun.
Thank you, Andrew (whoever you are and although I sometimes doubt
I got you right there, doesn't matter anyway, because it's my way to hear it and for me it's as if, at least an if ).


* And sorry, this is absolutely nothing personal, edmogirl ... but I can't just neither avoid it nor offer you better or more elaborate expressions at the moment, I've been acting on the impulse ...

Being645 wrote: ... Everything - under the gun. Thank you, Andrew (though I sometimes doubt whether I got you right there, doesn't matter anyway, because it's my way to hear it).

It is always the listener. Each of us makes his/her own image. I try not to think what AE had in mind when writing the song, it is always what it means to me.
And you are right, it means a lot.

itnAklipse wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"Home of the Hit-Men" comes to mind

Are you sure it's brilliant? Or are you sure it's only good for a joke? Do you know what it means? Do you care what it means?

You are so undemanding...of yourself. But i'll charge 10 euros to tell you why.

Edmogirl: As in "the unexamined life is not worth living" -kinda way? But i'm not as misogynistic as you perhaps - i think rather the fault for the alienation lies in both (non-)participants. Like, again, in Romeo Down (though in that for entirely different reasons). Maybe the man is even running away from something. He sings the "cliches" with her in the beginning, after all. And cliches, too, are cliches for a reason. It's true they can be repeated having forgotten, or never having even known, the original intent behind the cliche, but i rather think there is some truth expressed in such things often enough. As in "are you living for love?"
It's only when the meaning is gone that it turns into a cliche.

Problem with this kind of thing really is i never know how deep one should go into it, where the writer's intentions end.

Completely agree here. Although a true analysis would take us into the realms of the Lyrics Discussion area of the forum. To me there are a four characters that are singing, A man and a woman both in love, the man can not stay with the woman, she doesn't know why he can not and why he has so many secrets. The other two characters are more complicated. They need no gender, they are no longer talking about Romantic Love, in this change of context, "Are you living for love?" is a philosophical question put towards the other character, that represents the point of view of the rich, greedy, powerful and cold. The song is filled with questions and answers. The "Poem/rap" towards the end of the song is also very specifically describing events, perhaps not in any particular order, that may be based on real experiences or just things over-heard. If one merely knows the definitions of all the words that's at least a good start. Yet I think the poem part at the end of the song is not only describing real events and experiences, it is also describing emotionally how the male, from the couple aspect is feeling in this relationship. Perhaps all the different layers of the songs meaning are also intertwined, inter-related. Finally there is the idiomatic meaning of the title, which is another way of saying "Under Pressure", yet it also implies that someone has lost his will and is being controlled in a way they do not appreciate very much, yet can do little about. And no, it's not just Andrew feeling pressured by his fans or the record company, or a lover. There is too much technical jargon and too much political/military symbolism for it to be that simple.

I think it's along the lines of the plot of this movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1440728/

Although obviously that movie wasn't out at the time, and would have to be called "The Englishman" or some other such nonsense, instead.

Rather than being about a single relationship, I think the dialogue between the voices -the idealistic question and the answer- is about the value of dedication to some higher ideal above the material world (that is, "the many steps to Heaven") and whether such dedication is possible in the conditions of the real world, or indeed even satisfactory to the male voice.

Von's answer tends to be quite clear. The last two minutes is a series of disillusionment nukes.

The general theme applies to countless specific situations, of course.

@ itnAklipse ... ...

I appreciate your reply. Didn't get to read it before ...

However, I do not think the "fault" lies ultimately within the participants, since they don't have much chance to escape their heritage ...
it starts before you can even speak that you are instructed about what is man, what is woman, what is master, what is servant,
what is money and who you gotta be ... all this mythical s**t ... and then we all have to run to fulfil the order at school ...
no (often much yearned for) progress, only more of the same, only in "many colours" ...
but "we forgive as we forget" ... "too busy killing to see the crime" ... at best.

Well then, so long Marianne ...
*sorry if I couldn't believe my ears and rather kept to my own perceptions ... and decisions. I've paid for it.



@ Prescott ...
as far as I know "under the gun" is an old English idiom
which implies much more than merely "under pressure" ...

Also I think that from the circumstances I've described even the situation
between parents and kids, teachers and children, artists of any kind and
their "fans", or between employers and employees, men and women,
economically fortunate and unfortunate ("the haves and the haves not"),
and so on do unavoidably ensue ...

... those who get the best out of it often like to call it the Darwinist truth,
just like those who think they have to accept it since they are deeply
woven in the trap (even escorted from their desk) ... I call it ... a decision.
And mine is clear. I'll die without love and money and p*ss on the ground.
I will not have myself forced into any af these clichés ... which does not
mean, I could escape legally imposed malnutrition and neglect ... hehe, nooo ...
but no blackmailing me - you get only losers on all parts, even if I am
the one to pay the most. You'll never know, never. Wait, if you please,
for the next century, in case there should be still anyone alive ...

OK, I see, I'm still too deep into self-destruction ...
already started doing something about that. Thanks, yeah. Under The Gun. Everything.


Further important now:
Anyway ... my opinion is not a judgement, I use to apply to anybody else
... it's an expression of how I feel about things and what they do to me
and what I think they might do in general ... It's got nothing to do with
my respect for other people or their way of life.
And sorry for having chosen the means of extended self-explanation ...
I don't have any better. Will do it, however, now for some time, I hope.
Well, I promise, if necessary ...

Being645 wrote:as far as I know "under the gun" is an old English idiom
which implies much more than merely "under pressure" ...

I don't think so. Certainly I've never heard it and can't find any references to it. It's a playing position in poker terminology, the person who has to act before anyone gets to see the shared cards ("I've been under the gun/I've lost and I've won... where the chosen hold the highest card/on the field of honour where the ground is hard/so the highest hand is joking wild/and the house soon fold and no-one stand"). It's also a pun. a play on "everything under the sun". And it had already been used as song and album titles by a few bands before Von used it.

Being645 wrote: ... those who get the best out of it often like to call it the Darwinist truth,
just like those who think they have to accept it since they are deeply
woven in the trap (even escorted from their desk) ... I call it ... a decision.
And mine is clear. I'll die without love and money and p*ss on the ground.
I will not have myself forced into any af these clichés ... which does not
mean, I could escape legally imposed malnutrition and neglect ... hehe, nooo ...
but no blackmailing me - you get only losers on all parts, even if I am
the one to pay the most. You'll never know, never. Wait, if you please,
for the next century, in case there should be still anyone alive ...

OK, I see, I'm still too deep into self-destruction ...
already started doing something about that. Thanks, yeah. Under The Gun. Everything.

This part of what you wrote really resonates with me, but I can't put my finger on it.

stufarq wrote:

Being645 wrote:as far as I know "under the gun" is an old English idiom
which implies much more than merely "under pressure" ...

I don't think so. Certainly I've never heard it and can't find any references to it. It's a playing position in poker terminology, the person who has to act before anyone gets to see the shared cards ("I've been under the gun/I've lost and I've won... where the chosen hold the highest card/on the field of honour where the ground is hard/so the highest hand is joking wild/and the house soon fold and no-one stand"). It's also a pun. a play on "everything under the sun". And it had already been used as song and album titles by a few bands before Von used it.

Thanks for yor reply, stufarq ...
I found it in an antiquarian bookshop in a very old leather-bound dictionary from the 19th century. It was something like under the rule ...
In American colloquials you find gun also as a person of power and influence through questionable means, well to me, anyway, I'm clearly interpreting here, I confess ... ...

Didn't know about the poker terminology. My gambling capacities which I thoroughly tested at other games are restricted to knowing I had better not ... the lottery included. So thanks for that.



@ Prescott
No matter ... I've been ranting ...

itnAklipse wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"Home of the Hit-Men" comes to mind

Are you sure it's brilliant? Or are you sure it's only good for a joke? Do you know what it means? Do you care what it means?

You are so undemanding...of yourself. But i'll charge 10 euros to tell you why.

Edmogirl: As in "the unexamined life is not worth living" -kinda way? But i'm not as misogynistic as you perhaps - i think rather the fault for the alienation lies in both (non-)participants. Like, again, in Romeo Down (though in that for entirely different reasons). Maybe the man is even running away from something. He sings the "cliches" with her in the beginning, after all. And cliches, too, are cliches for a reason. It's true they can be repeated having forgotten, or never having even known, the original intent behind the cliche, but i rather think there is some truth expressed in such things often enough. As in "are you living for love?"
It's only when the meaning is gone that it turns into a cliche.

Problem with this kind of thing really is i never know how deep one should go into it, where the writer's intentions end.

I agree with you that at the beginning of the song the two voices are singing in harmony and that this is relevant. I was alluding to the female voice's meaningless repetition and increasingly demanding edge as the song progresses.
At this point, both characters are singing simultanious solos....which is, indeed, brilliant.

I also agree that the male voice has a significant back-story. While I agree that this kind of dialogue could happen in a same-sex relationship, I think that the perspectives from which these characters sing are tied to prescribed gender roles.

There hasn't been a large societal shift in which men have cast off the yoke of traditional male roles; yet they have the added pressure of meeting women's emotional demands (especially intimacy).

I think a lot of men are innundated with demands that rise from women's romantic fantasies. It is a sort of strange entitlement that arises from a lack of self-scrutiny and the current 'victim holds the power' zeitgeist. Too often, this places men in an impossible situation. An insightful depiction of this frustration makes 'The Full Monty' a damn smart and relevant movie...as well as a comedy.

Critically examining the current (pre men's movement) state of gender relations does not make me a misogynist. One of the major philosophical underpinnings of feminism is the idea that the human heart and spirit has inherent worth and should not be cruelly and unnecissarily limited and shackled by the society in which he/ she resides.

Why shouldn't men benefit from the same principles? I mean, it is pretty obvious that patriarchy has hurt them too.

Still, you are right in pointing out that the alienation lies in both characters. It is the breakdown in this duet that makes the biggest impact.

What it comes to the song, there's really nothing to debate about what you say. Voila, i agree.

itnAklipse wrote:What it comes to the song, there's really nothing to debate about what you say. Voila, i agree.

That was almost as intelligent as Beavis and Butt-head.

I think Edmorgirl has a lot of valid points and I think it is due time for some ewomancipation of man, but...

Should this not be in the Lyrics section really?

IZ.

Being645 wrote:

Off-topic, but this is the most AWESOME thing I've seen on HL since the vortex (which was the most awesome since the original Valentine thread).



As you were.

Thanks mh ... I just happened to me and I thought it was good ... ... would love to see the vortex, though, and the original Valentine Thread ... ...

We have some lovely emoticons on Poison Door (the German speaking forum) which I miss here ... but also the other way round ...