Heartland

marky, you're presupposing that these kids/adults have an education at all. or even went to school with any regularity.

...I honestly don't think the majority give a flying fcuk one way or another what happened to Mark Duggan. The initial protests were more than likely valid reaction to something that they genuinely felt something about. Once this initial anger and confrontationhad been quelled the following looting and mindless violence had absolutely nothing to do with it or any of the reasons you give.

It's merely dissafected youth venting aimless angst on their neighbours and small business in the area.

Stealing from injured passers by, looting an 89 year olds barbers shop and setting fire to domestic tower blocks amongst these incidents.

Sorry mate - but it just doesn't wash.

markfiend wrote:Sorry QB but I completely disagree.

Put yourself in the rioters' shoes. University was probably already out of your sights given the massive fees, the government have now cut EMA so you can't go to FE colleges, austerity measures are starting to bite so you've NO chance of getting a non-existent job, and the police have shot dead a young man, seemingly just for the crime of being black without care and attention then obscuring the truth to the usual degree as is the habit of the Met



I'd be pretty angry too. And mobilising the army against the current rioters will only make things worse. For a start, it will galvanise any "disaffected youth" out there who hasn't already started rioting, and secondly, riots and troops don't mix well. We don't want another Bloody Sunday. [let alone alienate even more of a population of a borough hung out to the dogs many moons ago]

Edited for truth-ish

There was an interesting quote from a local resident in the Grauniad's comments section this morning:

10.16am: Rebecca from Tottenham Hale sends this on the cleanups — and lack of them in some areas:

Great to see the Twitter cleanups — and Mare street was spotless this morning!

Perhaps Haringey council would like to explain why our street in Tottenham — which was filled with looting rioters from the retail park all saturday night — has not seen a cleanup (we did it ourselves on Sunday but there's still a lot of rubbish lying around, it just keeps coming from somewhere) and perhaps the Met would like to explain why they didn't come out to our road despite tens of phonecalls from residents.

We've not even seen any PCSOs checking people are OK, and there are some elderly people too scared to go out.

Obviously there's a lot going on. Obviously. But the parts of the community that weren't alienated from the police before are rapidly becoming so.

Really does sum it up.

This isn't a black and white issue and the danger is we're simply going to kick the very serious underlying issues into the grass for another generation.

Well said, markfiend ... these youngsters feel completely excluded from any perspective and development not to mention self-fulfilment (this word has become almost a bad joke nowadays). That's why they are giving a damn now for the property of anybody who seemingly does have a perspective and/or a life such as that young boy they even robbed off when he was injured ...

All of this is absolutely saddening and surely the wrong way ... but given the fact that contructiveness and sheer endless accomodation is what they have been asked in order to achieve a viable, worthwhile and recognised living while none of the promised effects has ever shown for always other new reasons (and to the contrary rather) one does not wonder all that much ... human livestock breeding isn't as simple as breeding cattle or chicken which one might decimate and castrate at one's own decision ... because it's about some fellow human creatures who one has to live together with in one society ... more or yeah, less.

In Germany, one widespread means of resistance is non-reproduction, obviously ... evading (further useless) confrontations and - in the long run - violent outbreaks. So to say: Let the government and the economy be happy with the effects of their will ... The underlying violations, despair and aggression are the same, though.

Hom_Corleone wrote:...I honestly don't think the majority give a flying fcuk one way or another what happened to Mark Duggan. The initial protests were more than likely valid reaction to something that they genuinely felt something about. Once this initial anger and confrontationhad been quelled the following looting and mindless violence had absolutely nothing to do with it or any of the reasons you give.

It's merely dissafected youth venting aimless angst on their neighbours and small business in the area.

Stealing from injured passers by, looting an 89 year olds barbers shop and setting fire to domestic tower blocks amongst these incidents.

Sorry mate - but it just doesn't wash.

couldn't agree more. i see nothing more than a bunch of mindless thugs with massively inflated senses of entitlement smashing things for shits & giggles with zero consideration for others whose lives are screwed up as a consequence.

if there's a statement in there somewhere, i fail to see it amidst the chaos and destruction.

this says it all really: http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

very troubling stuff

One of the problems has to be just how little trust the public now have in the Met. After the Brazilian electrician and Ian Tomlinson and the extensive disinformation and smear campaign against the pair of them to cover up the Met's failings there can be little credence given to their claims about who and what this young man was. This doesn't even take into account the forced resignations of some senior figures in the organisation thanks to this farrago with the Murdochs.

We also have a complete breakdown in the trust the general public have in the police's ability. We've more police now than we've ever had as a percentage of the population, where the hell are they and what are they doing? So the public are calling for the one public service they have confidence in still, the Army. If the stories of people having to be evacuated from their houses, and actual home invasions are true, people are going to demand the right to bear arms in their own homes, if the police can't or won't protect them. We already have "people's militia's" forming as householders and businessmen have lost confidence in the police.
As the rioters are predominantly black can you imagine the fallout?

The problem seems to be what little faith the Met have in themselves
Because they are scared of hitting / rubber bulleting / baton charging the wrong chap they seem to be standing by and "containing" the violence - and doing a p*ss poor job.
I don't see anything political in this I just see violence that should have been met early on with violence.
They interviewed Alan Sugar about it on some show this morning and he rambled on meaninglessly (a bit like me) but at the end he didn't say "London, you're fired" - lost opportunity

If the people don't trust the police they'd be foolish to trust the army IMO. It's a bloodbath waiting to happen.

For anyone in Manchester, there's a Twitter account been set up for the inevitable clean-up operation tomorrow after this evening's events:

http://twitter.com/RiotCleanUpManc

The Telegraph wrote:Aaron Biber, 89, who has run a barber shop close to Tottenham High Road for 41 years, told how the looters had stolen a number of small items, including his kettle and cotton wool, after breaking into his premises. “Everyone knows me around here — I have been here since the 1970s — but now I will probably have to close because I haven’t got insurance and I can’t afford the repairs,� he said.

Kinda brings it home, a bit. You see explosions, fire, all the time on TV and films, but those pictures really hurt to look at.

I'm no fan of the Met, but there has been at least one confirmed fatality, people's homes burned down, livelihoods lost... the rioters have done so much damage, and in the name of what? Getting some new Nikes?

I just don't know any more...

Bartek wrote:Wut 'bout Bristol? Earlier this morninig I've heard that bored twats are also doing party there. I'm asking 'cause my mum is in Swansea and will need to go to Bristol to get to airport, it's next Wednesday so hope everything will calm down but you know.

Bristol went up last night. Looting in the City Centre & Cabot Circus. Damage in Stokes Croft & St. Pauls. The airport's miles away from these areas, but the bus station isn't if she's coming by train then getting a bus to the airport.
.

Isn't it funny how the media supports the "demonstrations" in the middle east and the next week condemns the "riots" in the UK?

Dr Poo wrote:Isn't it funny how the media supports the "demonstrations" in the middle east and the next week condemns the "riots" in the UK?

Exactly

Maybe I just don't get the point, but from the outside, what they did in Egypt looked quite different?

Sita wrote:Maybe I just don't get the point, but from the outside, what they did in Egypt looked quite different?

Yep, In Egypt they didn't loot and burn their own neighbourhood stores and destroy local people's businesses and homes. Whilst there is a debate about government policy and consumerism and their effect on people's behaviour there is no equation with the middle-east. These protests have little to do with political protest.

Absolutely right, abridged. And as much as some might want to call the UK a tyranny, that's the sort of claim that can only be made by someone who has no acquaintance with tyranny.

Nixon wrote:Bristol went up last night. Looting in the City Centre & Cabot Circus. Damage in Stokes Croft & St. Pauls. The airport's miles away from these areas, but the bus station isn't if she's coming by train then getting a bus to the airport.

Thanks, she will be coming by bus from Swansea but i don't know if there will be some stop and change bus in Bristol.

I'm with Sita with this wondering. Egyptians, Libyans, Syrians and so had some purpose, real reason to go on streets and start riots. Here- especially when i heard that eye-witness said that he saw 150 - 200 group of 16-20 yrs old man - is not a group of people who just graduated and can't find a job or those who can't go to university/collage. And this pictures of looted small shops, reports of eye-witness who saw gangs with more TVs and microwaves that they could carried or pictures of this young injured man who was robbed and didn't get any little of help.
And police that will use rubber bullets and physical force to sto from crimes but not water cannon. Why not ? You got strange country.

Dr Poo wrote:Isn't it funny how the media supports the "demonstrations" in the middle east and the next week condemns the "riots" in the UK?

Replace the word "funny" with "warped" & I can agree with that.

markfiend wrote:Sorry QB but I completely disagree.

Put yourself in the rioters' shoes. University was probably already out of your sights given the massive fees, the government have now cut EMA so you can't go to FE colleges, austerity measures are starting to bite so you've even less chance of getting a job, and the police have shot dead a young man, seemingly just for the crime of being black without care and attention.

I'd be pretty angry too. And mobilising the army against the current rioters will only make things worse. For a start, it will galvanise any "disaffected youth" out there who hasn't already started rioting, and secondly, riots and troops don't mix well. We don't want another Bloody Sunday.

That doesn't justify it. There are far more people up and down the country in the same position (ie in the rioters' shoes) who don't riot. It's not like it's the natural and only response. It's the response of people who choose to be violent and to take it out on entirely innocent people.

My town in France is burning, FIRE!!!!!

I don't think replacing your trainers for free equates to trying to throw off the yoke of a dictatorship
If you see it as one and the same then you are belittling the efforts of the folk in the Middle East
Maybe next time some paedo gets put in prison for 15 years you'll say it is just the same as being in Aushwitz
What I am trying to say is that there is no COMPARISON.

I find the comparison with the arab spring tasteless...didn't think the comparison would come up here. It is not the same, at all.

Yikes!

I do believe Quiffy and Jo's flat is smack back in the centre of Manchester, so hopefully they're safe and sound and we'll hear from them soon.

The people in Tottenham had a legit motive to peacefully protest. But until the truth comes out, we're all guessing as to what actually happened that resulted in Mr Duggan's death.

Otherwise, everything since then has been pure criminality. It's violence and looting. It's destroying people's livelihoods. It's killing their communities. The rioters/looters don't give a s**t.

Mr Fiend:

As much as I love you, your post on the first page was complete and utter bollox. As have some of your follow ups been. From someone who openly made a statement on HL not to be so arrogant, hypocritical and judgemental, you seem to forget quickly.

We're good friends in real life even though you're a Leftie (I was being polite) and I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun.

But having said that, and I'm being totally straight here; your avatar has been bugging me ever since you posted it. What next? Black face?

You know enough about me to not even get me started on reverse racism.

Just idle thoughts my friend, idle thoughts.

Love as always.

Bartek wrote: but not water cannon. Why not ?

water metering

Sometimes I find inappropriate humour is the only way I can deal with situations I can not comprehend.

Dr Poo wrote:Isn't it funny how the media supports the "demonstrations" in the middle east and the next week condemns the "riots" in the UK?

Not really. While I don't discount a degree of Western bias in the reporting of mass demonstrations in the Middle East, people who take to the streets to protest against 'dictatorships' often do so knowing they may be risking their lives. People who took to the streets in London and elsewhere over the weekend did so with complete confidence that they weren't, despite the shooting of Mark Duggan. In short, I see the former as an act of bravery and the other as an act of ignorance.

I encountered someone today who said he wished something like that would kick off in Glasgow, as he'd be "right up for it". And that seemed to be as far as he was capable of reasoning. When asked, he said he didn't care about anyone getting hurt or their homes being torched - all he cared about was pissing off the police and "the snooty people". I'm guessing this to be largely the mentality of the young men taking to the streets here. I can accept that boredom and deprivation are contributing factors but the sheer infectiousness of the mob mentality that leads to random acts of violence and destruction is bloody alarming. And I'm including political demonstrations in the Middle East here. I seem to recall a journalist suffering a serious sexual assault in Egypt last year when she was caught up in a mob during the demonstrations.

I've absolutely no idea what the answer is. While I'm not comfortable with a heavy handed approach, people need to know there are repercussions for their actions and they'll be held accountable. Incidentally, my sister in Peckham saw lots of police hanging around on her way to the town centre last night (yes she was daft enough to go and watch!). They appeared to be holding back until the trouble really started, which it did of course. She saw them finally spring into action just as she was leaving.