Heartland

abridged wrote:Ah have to disagree: Vision Thing itself is great, as is Dr. Jeep, Something Fast, I Was Wrong, Ribbons, Detonation Boulevard. I think More goes on for too long and maybe YCBTO could've replaced When You don't See Me but VT probably is still me fav Sisters album. Floodland is great apart from Neverland, (which is dull to the nth degree) but I do think Vision Thing is somewhat unfairly maligned. I agree, I think they overdid the whole boys in a band thing a bit but I think that was probably over-compensating after the 'solo' (so to speak) Floodland project.

VT suffers, I think, because Dr. Jeep, Detonation Boulevard, and WYDSM all seem to be missing something. Oddly enough, the extended remix of Dr. Jeep totally does it for me. Dunno why.

But Ribbons and I Was Wrong forgive all sins.

bearskin wrote:The Reptile House is the best single project that TSOM have done. FALAA doesn't even come close - it's not even the best album they did...

Quite right, Sir.

Best producer they ever had (incl. Eldritch) was John Ashton.

bearskin wrote:I do wonder these days what he would come up with for brand new work

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say drum arrangements to old songs. This goes by the assumption that is still the MasterChief when it comes to dabbling with the Dok.

I think he could still figure out combinations of beats and bells and whistles to create serviceable songs. If he'd then only twitch them out of joint a little to make them interesting and let the guitars all over it, all he would have to worry about would be the words.

They're worlds to him there, so that's trickier.

sultan2075 wrote: VT suffers, I think, because Dr. Jeep, Detonation Boulevard, and WYDSM all seem to be missing something. Oddly enough, the extended remix of Dr. Jeep totally does it for me. Dunno why.

But Ribbons and I Was Wrong forgive all sins.

I agree with this strongly.
Det Blvd being the weakest song they ever put on record imo...

Hah, I don't think Vision Thing misses anything. It just takes things to other edges than before, culminating in each song, and with different means than before ...

A further such culmination in a Reptile House EP like approach had surely done no harm, but we got You Could Be The One and (later on) Under The Gun for that. And above all, indeed, a Doctor Jeep single with a live version of Knockin' On Heaven's Door on it, and the limited edition 12" including live versions of Burn and Amphetamine Logic ...

In a way this makes visible some, err, pressured production strategy with a deadline cutting some more reasonable choice of tracks and even some further elaboration of the Vision Thing "project" off ...

I'd bet there are/were more songs say, culminating which never saw the light of day ... unfortunately. But still, Vision Thing did and does what it says on the tin ... mostly thanks to I Was Wrong as the final track. Still, it's got the worst Sisters song ever on it, i.e. When You Don't See Me ... though on the other hand it is only another symptomatic culmination (as mentioned before). Basically, SSV seems like a natural consequence from all of this to me ... with both records rather clearly expressing certain (living) conditions and circumstances at the time than missing anything.

Anyway, I think The Sisters of Mercy have always had a hell lot of other varieties on offer when playing live ... including covers like Comfortably Numb. And anyway (again), the new songs like War On Drugs, Susanne, Summer, Slept, Will I Dream?, Crash And Burn, Romeo Down have long shown in what directions things were about to develop (and made clear - over and over again as ever - where The Sisters do in fact come from) ... they've just never happened to find the right basis, which I assess even more crucial than lacking some adequate, err, record company support. Very, very, very bad luck, IMHO, for otherwise Vision Thing (and SSV) - as much as Floodland - had been just steps underway to following masterpieces.

abridged wrote:

Bartek wrote:VT was in like 90% 'solo' work (take a look in booklet- credits)

Yeah but VT was written to be toured unlike Floodland. Hence Tony James et al were needed and the whole boys in a band thing, the record covers, the t-shirts and posters was emphasized as never before. Previously only the inside cover of F&L&A had a band pic as far as I remember. Yep I know songs of Floodland are played regularly on tour now but it wasn't the priority at the time.

Hard to disagree (according to interviews) but, it's not what you wrote.

copper wrote:

bearskin wrote:I do wonder these days what he would come up with for brand new work

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say drum arrangements to old songs. This goes by the assumption that is still the MasterChief when it comes to dabbling with the Dok.

I think he could still figure out combinations of beats and bells and whistles to create serviceable songs. If he'd then only twitch them out of joint a little to make them interesting and let the guitars all over it, all he would have to worry about would be the words.

I'm pretty sure Bruhn had the majority of the arrangement and programming duties when they restarted touring in '90.

Being645 wrote:Still, it's got the worst Sisters song ever on it, i.e. When You Don't See Me

Best song on the album.

stufarq wrote:

Being645 wrote:Still, it's got the worst Sisters song ever on it, i.e. When You Don't See Me

Best song on the album.

Oh yeah, geniuses tend to live in tunnels ... big, long, dark ... and presumably endless.

stufarq wrote:

Being645 wrote:Still, it's got the worst Sisters song ever on it, i.e. When You Don't See Me

Best song on the album.

I can agree with that.

Isn't there a bit in that song: "you bought a mask - I put it on.. you never thought to ask me if I wear it when you're gone" (or something like that?). The best couple of lines of lyrics I'd say in any Sisters song. IMO.

bearskin wrote:

stufarq wrote:

Being645 wrote:Still, it's got the worst Sisters song ever on it, i.e. When You Don't See Me

Best song on the album.

I can agree with that.

Isn't there a bit in that song: "you bought a mask - I put it on.. you never thought to ask me if I wear it when you're gone" (or something like that?). The best couple of lines of lyrics I'd say in any Sisters song. IMO.

... oh yes, there are many pretty lines in iit:

I'm throwing off the shadow of a better man now ... ...

I don't exist when you don't see me ... ...

What the eye don't see won't break the heart ... ...

.What you see is what you lost ... ...


Hell, the world is full of funny creatures ... ... However, it is not that the lyrics were all that bad ... one can in fact make something of it,
but so far i've heard only one version where The Sisters performed that song in a way reasonable to me, and it was not the version on
Vision Thing or any related single but was played during some gig in the 2000s, IIRC ... all other versions do, IMHO, completely fall off mark
... and unfortunately so ... ...

I get the whole regret and reflection thing. Just that those two lines in particular said something succinctly in a way that has always resonated. I find so much of life is wearing of masks that sometimes become just a tad too comfortable a fit - & heck I'm just Joe Average, not someone whose adult life has been subject of forums such as this.

bearskin wrote:I get the whole regret and reflection thing. Just that those two lines in particular said something succinctly in a way that has always resonated. I find so much of life is wearing of masks that sometimes become just a tad too comfortable a fit - & heck I'm just Joe Average, not someone whose adult life has been subject of forums such as this.

Hhm, I see ... didn't want to make you feel like that ...

Being645 wrote: Hhm, I see ... didn't want to make you feel like that ...

Hey, not you that made me think about it that way - Andrew's words summed things up a long while ago; and on a few more subjects than just the too-occasional adoption of roles and having to perform like so kind of monkey on a string. To please people, society, your boss etc. We all conform.

Funnily enough perhaps, one of those who don't - these days, as probably ever - is the author. And respect for that.

bearskin wrote:Hey, not you that made me think about it that way - Andrew's words summed things up a long while ago; and on a few more subjects than just the too-occasional adoption of roles and having to perform like so kind of monkey on a string. To please people, society, your boss etc. We all conform.

Funny, I've never understood the song that way ... ... looks much clearer now ...

I'm somewhat a deeply rooted idiot regards adopting roles ... so hell, I'd taken it from a direction of accusation, resentment,
unnecessary and ineffective cruelty and yes, indeed, of forcing nasty roles upon people ... and I'd never come to peace with that!
Too involved in a way - combat the f**k to the very edge ... and most likely always finding the next wall to kiss ... *sigh ...

Thanks for clearing this up ... ...

Oh, don't get me wrong, the lyrics on the VT album are generally great (a particularly fine example, as you say, being When You Don't See Me) but the music is, for the most part, godsawful.

czuczu wrote:I'm pretty sure Bruhn had the majority of the arrangement and programming duties when they restarted touring in '90.

I believe you're right, but who does them now?

I'm assuming it's , but it could just as well be Chris or someone else.

copper wrote: I believe you're right, but who does them now?

I'm assuming it's , but it could just as well be Chris or someone else.

Surely it's Andrew? Isn't the Dok the Heart of TSOM - I'd be if the rhythm section was anyone else's responsibility.

bearskin wrote:

copper wrote: I believe you're right, but who does them now?

I'm assuming it's , but it could just as well be Chris or someone else.

Surely it's Andrew? Isn't the Dok the Heart of TSOM - I'd be if the rhythm section was anyone else's responsibility.

Presumably it's Si. He is Nure to the Doktor after all.

Being645 wrote:

bearskin wrote:Hey, not you that made me think about it that way - Andrew's words summed things up a long while ago; and on a few more subjects than just the too-occasional adoption of roles and having to perform like so kind of monkey on a string. To please people, society, your boss etc. We all conform.

Funny, I've never understood the song that way ... ... looks much clearer now ...

No, I don't think that's what the song's about at all. I've always thought that it was about being in a relationship where you're so consumed by the other person that you're only brought to life when they're there; but they care so little about you that they don't even think about you when you're apart. In both cases "I don't exist when you don't see me."

Didn't Von say that he wrote the song for Andreas Bruhn because Andreas was going through a difficult time with his girlfriend? Presumably that was the nature of their relationship.

radiojamaica wrote:

sultan2075 wrote: VT suffers, I think, because Dr. Jeep, Detonation Boulevard, and WYDSM all seem to be missing something. Oddly enough, the extended remix of Dr. Jeep totally does it for me. Dunno why.

But Ribbons and I Was Wrong forgive all sins.

I agree with this strongly.
Det Blvd being the weakest song they ever put on record imo...

Agree strongly too. Det and WYDSM are utter crap. Both are the only Sisters songs I don't know the words to. Says it all.

I do love Dr jeep though...

markfiend wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong, the lyrics on the VT album are generally great (a particularly fine example, as you say, being When You Don't See Me) but the music is, for the most part, godsawful.

Probably the wisest comment I've ever read on HL. I assume that Ribbons and VT the song are exempted.

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:

markfiend wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong, the lyrics on the VT album are generally great (a particularly fine example, as you say, being When You Don't See Me) but the music is, for the most part, godsawful.

Probably the wisest comment I've ever read on HL. I assume that Ribbons and VT the song are exempted.

I've liked you since your first post.

Ribbons, aye.

1) Reptile House

2) Floodland

pikkrong wrote:1) Reptile House

2) Floodland

no room for teachers/adrenochrome = best thing by the sisters, then utg

reptile house is boring compared to live

Purple Light wrote:[Det and WYDSM are utter crap. Both are the only Sisters songs I don't know the words to. Says it all.

Given that Von is currently doing a Halford look-a-like, sounds possible that you could be the new Tim "Ripper" Owens... might wanna brush up on those last two tunes. Just in case

Back to original topic:
First and Last and Always is THE BEST ALBUM EVER! Sorry for being so blunt, but this records literally changed my life.
The Reptile House was important, yes, but only in a sense that it contained songs that were performed WAY BETTER elsewhere (cf. BBC versions of Burn & Valentine, e.g.).

To the off topics in between:
Floodland was too much keyboard for me. But there are two tunes from heaven: Flood I (overwhelming) and Lucretia (best bass riff ever, this one rocks)
Vision Thing contained nice to hear almost-metal-songs fitting the band at that point, but there was only one song to stand the test of time: Ribbons (although I admit to tire to hear it every gig 2nd or 1st or 3rd place).

Kutan