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Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:11
by markfiend
(I've split this off from the newsworthy thread)

I don't think that armchair diagnoses of mental illness are altogether helpful by the way.
sultan2075 wrote:Oh, and Markfiend: a militia, in the colonial context, would have been a group of civilians who train and drill to protect their communities. It would not have been a professional military. So yes, the Amendment does pertain to individual gun ownership. The American Founders were generally suspicious of standing armies, and the necessity of such armies was a subject of much controversy during the ratification debates surrounding the Constitution.
Hmmm. OK, thanks. but I still think that the amendment was probably intended to be read along the lines of "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people who belong to this militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

But it's beside the point. It was written for a situation that pertained two centuries ago. The situation that pertains today is one in which the US has a gun-death rate per capita thirty-six times as high as that in the UK.
sultan2075 wrote:Interestingly, there seems to be a correlation between low Brady Campaign scores (the Brady Campaign is an anti-firearm interest group in the United States; low scores indicate a higher prevalence of private firearm ownership in a state) and low homicide rate (per CDC numbers). Now, correlation is not necessarily causation--it may be that US states which are culturally more comfortable with firearms are also less likely to be breeding grounds for the sort of alienation that leads to such horrific actions.
Interestingly, that statistic is completely opposite to what I've been reading. I've been looking internationally rather than within and between states, but a country having strong gun control laws, well enforced, correlates very closely with that country having lower gun death rates.

Also, I think Anders Breivik is a red herring. (As I understand it he was the legal owner of the guns he used -- an argument for stronger gun controls in Norway?) No-one is claiming that gun control is perfect; there's always a chance that someone can slip through the net. Hells, even Japan, probably the country with the most stringent gun controls in the world, manages to have a handful of gun deaths a year.

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:20
by lazarus corporation
The NRA has just deactivated it's Facebook page - which does seem to be the online equivalent of putting its collective hands over its ears and shouting "I can't hear you!" (whether that was the intention or not).

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:24
by Quiff Boy
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... -guns.html
The American audience is a giant emotional sponge looking for distraction from its collective gun craziness, and the media obliges, broadcasting endless montages of victims, with somber, hymnal piano music playing underneath.

After the state medical examiner had finished talking about multiple bullet wounds in each young victim, all inflicted by the same Bushmaster rifle, one reporter asked the man to talk about how much he'd cried — "personally" — while performing the autopsies.

To repeat: the 20-year-old shooter used a Bushmaster .223 assault rifle, a commercial model of the military M-16, and the reporter wanted to talk about crying.

The weapon is designed for war, firing ultra-destructive bullets that travel at 3,000 feet per second. It is designed to destroy human life as efficiently as possible, causing maximum internal damage.

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:35
by nowayjose
The problem is the gun in the head, not the gun in the hand. As long as society (not just American but particularly there) fetishizes firearms and presents them as a general purpose solution, there will be little change.

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:50
by Pista
nowayjose wrote:As long as society (not just American but particularly there) fetishizes firearms and presents them as a general purpose solution, there will be little change.
It's not so much fetishizing, more "normalising" them, as if they were mobile phones or laptop computers.
To the extent where this can actually happen in a newspaper without anyone so much as batting an eyelid.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Outrage- ... 56541.html

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:55
by Bartek
That is very true nowayjose, thereofore there's nothing that can be done to prevent that situations, to eliminate it at all. Alternative is to live in open society, with government that trust, but not controle them in every way they can (which doesn't mean that state does not controle and tries to prevent that situation at all) or to live in country that use total control in the name of public security.

Edith:
That doesn't mean that gun control isuseless at all, it's opposite, but i think, is obsvious that nothingcan stop people from killing others.

Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 21:59
by emilystrange
i looked at my class today, and just wanted to hug them all. they're the same age.

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 00:17
by 6FeetOver
Being645 wrote:Schools should rather see to long-time bullied and isolated kids. Things like this do not happen out of nothing.

I just had a lengthy conversation with my neuropsychologist this morning about the horrific events that took place here in Connecticut last Friday. I asked for her opinion regarding the wisdom (or the potential lack thereof) of my "coming out," as it were (borrowing the phrase from another maligned group), in light of the unfathomable tragedy that unfolded an hour's drive from where I live. She asked for my reasoning behind my desire to "come out," and I told her that it was because I finally felt validated and vindicated, and at peace with something that I'd suspected for years.


I was bullied relentlessly - often daily - as a child, from the moment I entered school at age 4. First, it was because of my "excessive" female height…then it was for the height, combined with chronic and very serious childhood asthma…then, when I was around 9, and was invited into the town's program for intellectually gifted students, it was the height, the asthma, and the giftedness.

Throughout my childhood, though, there was also an underlying current of "difference" that my mom explained away as owing to the fact that I was, intellectually, far above my same-age "peer" group, and thus couldn't possibly be expected to relate to them. This was partially true, but it didn't explain the sensory issues (I shudder at fluorescent lighting, scratchy clothing, sharp/screechy/sudden/very loud noises/being touched or grabbed unexpectedly/crowds; I can't multi-task, in that if I'm reading something, I can't simultaneously register someone's conversation, etc.) the lack of social reciprocity (I had no real desire to interact with other kids; when I did, I was inevitably "run off on" by the other girls during recess, left alone to wander aimlessly on the playground or to head back indoors to hang out with the teacher), the "gullibility" and naiveté (I refused to lie and cover-up other kids' misbehavior, so I was branded a "tattle-tale"), the rigidity of thought and reasoning, the "mind-blindness" (I remember prefacing my one-sided discussions with other kids with "Well, *everybody* knows that [blahblahblah]…" Obviously, everybody did not know. ;)), the fact that I could read at the age of 3 and was also hyperlexic, the sometimes-inappropriate behavior (showing my X-rated drawings to my much-younger cousins, because I was obsessed with everything sexual at the age of 9 - still am! ;P), the visual thinking, the inability to read body language, and the rest of the "abnormal" brain "wiring" issues that I continue to deal with daily.

As I entered middle school (age 13), new insults emerged - weirdo, oddball, zombie, robot. Lacking the means to defend myself against the other kids' verbal (and sometimes physical) assaults, I recoiled in shock and disbelief, looking, like Mr. Spock, for a rational explanation for others' irrational actions. Hell, I didn't even *know* most of the students who so comfortably hurled their verbal venom at me in school hallways, lunchrooms, libraries, girls' toilets, and the like. Suffering from extreme social anxiety, partially due to genetics and home life (nature/nurture), and partially due to the constant bullying and teasing, I was essentially mute while in school; I dreaded any additional attention being drawn to myself.

Sadly, there was no safe haven to be found even among the adults I encountered. They, too, frequently tossed hateful and ignorant remarks my way, and seemed to take sadistic pleasure in singling me out in front of classrooms full of mocking peers, taking me to task for everything from my palpable terror and lack of eye contact while speaking in front of groups, to my inability to keep up with classmates during forced calisthenics/lap running in phys.ed.

I became a target for others' hostility wherever I went, so the only place that was "safe" was home (with Mom). Only home wasn't safe, either, because my own dad treated me - and still does - nearly as badly as the hate mongers at school and in the general populace. My anxiety- and depression-fueled "meltdowns" (over my frustrating inability to understand certain maths, transferring to a new school at age 14, an impending driving test, and the like, over the years) enraged and disgusted my father. Rather than getting me the professional help that I so desperately needed, he launched into violent tirades directed at my mother (my hero, shield, champion, cheerleader, best friend, confidante, soul mate, and only real connection to other people) and me, culminating in his repeated insistence that I be institutionalized. He wanted me out of his house, and out of his sight. Naturally, my mother begged to differ. The ensuing nightmarish battles between my parents raged on for as long as Mom lived.

Like most bullied kids, I turned others' vitriol inward, not outward. By the time I entered my second year of high school, I'd gone from earning excellent grades in my Honors/Advanced Placement (college-level) courses, to receiving humiliating test and year-end scores. Not one guidance counselor ever intervened; none of my teachers ever had the wherewithal to discuss any of this with Mom (Dad wanted nothing to do with me, and never even came to my defense during bullying cases that should've been taken to court - but I digress). Basically, I had given up.

By the time I reached 16, I desperately wanted to die. I had no hope that the future would hold anything but more misery, and I'd already had more than my fair share. I actually began planning the steps I'd take to off myself, hiding bottles of pain pills in my bedroom closet. I'll spare you the boring details, but, suffice it to say, if I hadn't had the saint/angel mother that I did, I wouldn't be here right now. I owed it to my mom to stay alive, because I knew that killing myself would kill her in the most brutal manner imaginable. So I chose to suffer, instead.


I still suffer, and probably always will. I'm still a target wherever I go - namely because, at 6'1", I can't hide, and because my social interaction "differences" become readily apparent when I'm overwhelmed, exhausted, sad, stressed-out, angry, or excited. I may always be stuck at 16 emotionally and socially, because there's no way that I'll ever be able to catch up to my same-age "peers." I haven't had the benefit of the social or life experiences that they've taken for granted, and I didn't experience "normal" coming-of-age milestones at societally-approved times. My appearance, behavior, life outlook, and attire are generally viewed as juvenile and unsophisticated. On the flip side, though, at the ripe old age of 44, I'm regularly assumed to be 28-32 by those who don't know me, so perhaps there's a tiny glimmer of a silver lining in all of this darkness. ;)

Thankfully, I have caring siblings and supportive mental health professionals in my corner. I've got a lot of tough and daunting work ahead of me - committing to ongoing (and very expensive) counseling for my often-debilitating existential depression and anxiety, continuing to develop my social skills (I always wonder how I seemed to you lot during that awesome HL meetup back in August 2007..?), adding some flexibility to my "black-and-white" thinking patterns, working on my inability to cope well with situations over which I have no control, resisting the urge to vegetate in solitude while wallowing in self-pity and self-loathing, relaxing my intolerance of others' rampant stupidity and ignorance, letting go of self-destructive thoughts and thought patterns, setting manageable and realistic career/life goals, and the like.

*I* know that I'm intellectually superior to the vast majority of the populace, and so, when I'm dealing with difficult people, I'm able to consider the source and find it laughably lacking. I no longer care what "commoners" think of me, because they've proven time and again that their opinions are uneducated, illogical, without merit, and pretty much worthless. I work daily on finding reasons to be grateful (even though I still see my future as rather hopeless, and human life, in the grand scheme of things, as meaningless).

Though I intellectualize, rather than "feel" many emotions, and don't empathize with other people and their experiences the way "normally-wired" folks do, I'm not dangerous, I'm not a monster, I'm certainly not a criminal, and I don't fantasize about gunning down the ignorant, bigoted, lemming-like segment of the population that considers me a freak. I don't need to be locked up, because, contrary to what some folks would like to believe, I'm not crazy. I'm simply a Mensa-bright, often (I'm told, anyway) very funny, witty, sarcastic, brooding, childlike, thoughtful, loving, fiercely-loyal, introverted, angry, opinionated, stubborn, sometimes-charming, girl who happens to have Asperger Syndrome. Pleased to meetcha! ;D

Now, if only I could get back to my own planet, where they know me well and don't mind that I'm an alien… ;)

:von:

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 00:56
by iesus
Things are simple, much simpler than we think.
You have to disarm someone to get him enslaved with less effort.
Some lunatics can serve the cause easy. Triggering some mass slaughters with the most innocent pay the tribute to make brain wash with mass media to make give up the guns the rest.
The trap lies behind the cheese :(

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 02:42
by 6FeetOver
Pista wrote:
nowayjose wrote:As long as society (not just American but particularly there) fetishizes firearms and presents them as a general purpose solution, there will be little change.
It's not so much fetishizing, more "normalising" them, as if they were mobile phones or laptop computers.
To the extent where this can actually happen in a newspaper without anyone so much as batting an eyelid.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Outrage- ... 56541.html

Aye. I'm a pacifist, actually, and I can't handle this culture of hatred and violence anymore. I need to get out of here, to somewhere a bit saner. I'm still looking for someone to help me get a green card via temporary sham marriage... :innocent: :wink: :lol: ;D :kiss:

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 04:05
by Garbageman
America , how do you sleep at night?

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 04:08
by 6FeetOver
Garbageman wrote:America , how do you sleep at night?
Some of us don't. :(

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 10:07
by paint it black
Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988: simples

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 10:34
by markfiend
paint it black wrote:Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988: simples
Would likely be struck down as unconstitutional in the US.

=================

Anyway, have a virtual hug (if you want one) Sinnie. {{{}}}

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 12:10
by Pista
@Sinnie

Firstly, in 2007, when we met, none of what you wrote about came through in your character at all. You were (& I guess still are) a wonderful, charming, funny & attractive young woman.
My mum was always the tallest in her class & got picked on even by the teachers. You being over 6' tall doesn't matter a jot. ;)
Virtual hugs too ((( ))).

As for what you wrote, it seems to me that people feared you & the only way they knew how to deal with it was to be cruel. Psychological conditions (disorders is such a cr@p word) aren't always obvious to onlookers. It's not like you have welts all over your body or blood gushing from a wound. Physical conditions are oft sorted out pronto, while the "hidden" issues are left on the back burner to get gradually worse.
I think to an extent, sufferers also fear admitting there is something amiss, as they prolly don't want to be branded as a "crazy" & parents also don't want to accept that their offspring are unstable or in any way "faulty". IMO, this is most likely what happened with Adam Lanza.
Reading a lot of stuff about this recent tragedy, it seems that the healthcare professionals (generally) also push the "invisible" issues back & let them fester out in the wild. That's just wrong.

In the case of Adam Lanza, it seems the school had figured out that he had disabilities & proposed a teaching plan that irked his mum, so she (prolly naturally) hauled him out of the school & taught him from home as if she refused to believe there was anything "wrong" with her boy.
Still, she took him to the shooting range & had a Bushmaster (commercial version of an M16) in the house.
Double fail really.
1. Not even seeking a medical opinion on her son's condition.
2. Having easily accessible firearms at home.

Seems the "system" failed them both & led to what happened last Friday.
I don't think any system will be foolproof for one second. Someone will always find a hole somewhere, but it is well past time to make those holes smaller & harder to find.
The whitehouse has stated
"It's a complex problem that will require a complex solution," Mr Carney said. "No single piece of legislation, no single action will fully address the problem."

Seems like an excuse to leave it dragging on for a few more years (or until the next time).
It's only complex if you try to fix all the problems in one fell swoop. I don't think anyone expects miracles & the logical course of action would be to fix the problems one by one & narrowing the avenue of opportunity for a repeat.
Arguing the toss about all the implications etc. will just leave the doors wide open for longer.

Now I need a coffee.......

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 12:31
by Quiff Boy
Pista wrote:Seems the "system" failed them both & led to what happened last Friday.
Whilst I agree almost 100% with everything you wrote there, I do wonder about "the 'system' failing them both".

What happened to personal responsibility? She had the guns. She taught her son where they were, what they were, what they could do, and how to use them... :?:

I agree that the "system" could and should have done more, but last time i looked no one wanted a "nanny state".
Pista wrote:It's only complex if you try to fix all the problems in one fell swoop.
Amen :notworthy:

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 15:22
by Pista
Quiff Boy wrote:
What happened to personal responsibility? She had the guns. She taught her son where they were, what they were, what they could do, and how to use them... :?:

I agree that the "system" could and should have done more, but last time i looked no one wanted a "nanny state".
Hence the double fail.
She was stupid enough to not take the school's advice & seek another opinion (sweeping it under the carpet basically) & doubly stupid to expose a potential time bomb to lethal weapons.
Effectively she made her own mind up that he was okay & that was a huge fcuk up on her part.

I notice that gun sales have rocketed since last friday as people "fear" the government will outlaw "certain types of weapons"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12 ... -massacre/

:|

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 15:49
by sultan2075
Quiff Boy wrote:
Pista wrote:Seems the "system" failed them both & led to what happened last Friday.
Whilst I agree almost 100% with everything you wrote there, I do wonder about "the 'system' failing them both".

What happened to personal responsibility? She had the guns. She taught her son where they were, what they were, what they could do, and how to use them... :?:

I agree that the "system" could and should have done more, but last time i looked no one wanted a "nanny state".
Pista wrote:It's only complex if you try to fix all the problems in one fell swoop.
Amen :notworthy:
This is largely what I was trying to get at earlier: focusing on guns is missing the larger point. We have a culture of cruelty, which feeds into this. And as Pista pointed out, people don't always want to deal with dangerous tendencies in a loved one.

So, basically, I'd say you're both right. But I'd add that in addition, there is a culture that is a little too comfortable with violence and cruelty, which I might suggest manifests in a few different ways in this case: an unwillingness on Lanza's part to seek help; a reluctance on Mrs. Lanza's part to see her child "branded" as crazy (because of what will happen to him--an impulse that is perfectly understandable, I might add); and a view of human life as cheap and easily disposable. Guns really are the least important, rather than the most important, part of the equation. As a society, we are far too comfortable with violence, and we are far too comfortable with cruelly ignoring the suffering of those around us.

This is not to absolve anyone, either: he killed those people, and he killed them with weapons that were irresponsibly stored by his mother. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 16:07
by nowayjose
What is striking is the accumulation of such incidents in the last 2 decades or so, which can be seen on those lists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc ... ted_States
(notable attacks)
and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Now I'm not one who blames "violent media" (i.e., Counterstrike etc.) for these incidents but something appears to have happened. I guess it's related to society as a whole.

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 17:09
by DocSommer
Quiff Boy wrote:every american should have the right to display bear arms in their home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RablPaIREkk
:lol: :lol: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:27
by 6FeetOver
If you lot *really* want to get angry, check out the comments beneath the articles, especially those on Yahoo! News... I'm guessing the commentators represent a good cross-section of the American populace, which I find absolutely terrifying. :cry:

I'm not kidding about that green card, kiddies. In all seriousness, I'd head over to any one of your countries right now, illegally, and try to make a go of it, just so I don't have to live in this nightmare anymore. I'd prefer to not get deported in the process, however. :|

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:37
by Bartek
What You have in USA is nightmare that You already get to know, so nightmare that You 'get used to' it and what You know how to deal with it, what You want is nightmare to what You will have to get to know and tame.

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:47
by 6FeetOver
Bartek wrote:What You have in USA is nightmare that You already get to know, so nightmare that You 'get used to' it and what You know how to deal with it, what You want is nightmare to what You will have to get to know and tame.
I'm not really sure that I understand what you're saying here, but I think I get the gist of it. I'll never get used to this culture of hatred and violence. I've shied away from violent situations and people since childhood, and I've wanted to live overseas (Northern/Western Europe) for about as long. *I* don't know how to deal with this abominable "society," other than to attempt to avoid it at all costs (one of the reasons why I tend to avoid dealing with other people around here unless I absolutely have to - like at work, at the grocery store, etc.). I sincerely doubt that places like Denmark and the Netherlands are considered by the rest of the world to be particularly "nightmarish." :eek:

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:50
by 6FeetOver
Check this out, and the comments that follow...

Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:59
by Pista
SINsister wrote:Check this out, and the comments that follow...
I tend to make a point of avoiding yahoo news for exactly that reason.
Looks like some serious trolling going on tbh.