Heartland

Dan wrote:Looks like the yellow just means no recording is available, because press cuttings exist for some of the yellow ones.

True. There are some cuttings in the SistersWiki pages.

Btw, turning to Trans-Europe Excess ... I always wonder when it ended - after the European gigs in September or with I-Beam in on October 31rst. I tend to the latter ...

The problem with repeating unverified information is it becomes it's own citation.

http://www.ultimatesistersguide.org/documents/1981.htm

7 May 1981 - University of York, York, England
Set
Setlist 1: 1969 • Sister Ray

Setlist 2: The Damage Done • Watch • Teachers • Adrenochrome • Sister Ray • Gimme Gimme Gimme (A Man After Midnight)

Notes
Both setlists are comfirmed, which one is correct?
Setlist 1 I have a recording off, and setlist 2 is comfirmed on Sisters Wiki

Sigh.

Being645 wrote:Btw, turning to Trans-Europe Excess ... I always wonder when it ended - after the European gigs in September or with I-Beam in on October 31rst. I tend to the latter ...

I think the clue is in the name of the tour!

But while we're on that period, does anyone know which was Ben Gunn's last gig? A press cutting says that he left at the end of the US tour (which would be NY on 17th Sept), but what about Hacienda on 22 Sept? Was he there or not?

Being645 wrote:

spiggymr7 wrote: Sabine , sorry if i let you think that the Sisters were just forgeted on the paper list ,that wasn't what i would like to said.
For me the 17/03 was a fake date, and this fake date was noticed by old bootlegs , by lot of old tapes, and also by the official site who is a good base but incomplet and with few errors regarding the old period.(like they also wrongly notice the fake date Mallemunt gig 24.08.83).
Next week end i wil do a detailed topic regarding the Brixton ace 83 gigs with all the informations i got

Thanks for the correction and info, spiggymr7 ... ... I see, that page will need some more "explanation" ... deleting it would only lead to further irritation because the gig is still in the official gigography.

Yeah, the Mallemunt miracle is half-way resolved, at the latest by the festival poster I found on the web. At least it is 100% clear that it was not on 24.08.83.

Looking forward to your further disclosures ... ... ...

i had some correspondence with Philippe when these first appeared, which put the date beyond any doubt. since then i aquired a master copy of the gig

http://www.newwavephotos.com/SistersofMercy.htm

Being645 wrote:At the time I did the page for 14 March, I exchanged loads of info, pictures, lyrics and stuff and also checked all the dates with Patti82 from the Ultimatesistersguide
http://www.ultimatesistersguide.org/documents/1983.htm

Looking at the dates listed there, I think those with a yellow header are meant to be unconfirmed or otherwise unclear ... and not listed in the official gigography.

i think a load of peeps just copied my website (which i stopped updating in 2006) so other knowledge / evidence gathered since isn't reflected. At that time...

The ones I don't have, or admit to having, for one reason or another, are highlighted in CYAN.
Tracks that are thought to exist but I don't have are highlighted in RED.
For now, I've used NOT KNOWN to indicate the fact that I don't know of a bootlegs existence, not that I don't know the setlist.... though sometimes I don't!

Being645 wrote:

As to 10 March ... ok, but how about 14 March then?
http://sisterswiki.org/Mon,_14-Mar-1983.

not in my list, didn't happen

ps. some gigs were fabricated to trade bootleg tapes, not because they actually happened and the early period was easier to do this

Dan wrote:Where did that 14 March date come from?

PIB quoted what Jensen said on 10th March...

paint it black wrote:spiggy - was kid jenson session 10 March?

because he says 'Ace Brixton tonight, 16th Hastings, 24th Liverpool, 25th Golden Eagle Birmingham, 26th Franks Lancishire, 27th Gallery Manchester, 1st Glasgow, 6th Lyceum London, 7th Leeds

It seems unlikely (but not impossible) they'd play Frank's on 14th March and again on 26th March, but Jensen didn't mention it. Could it be possible that it was originally scheduled for 14 March then moved to 26th March?

I've also been told by someone who was there that they played Frank's in March/April '82 and again in Oct/Nov '82. No exact dates though unfortunately.

Just even looking geographically, the 26th would seem to make more sense for the Colne gig.

I have buy this pass to Richard N... noticed on .
I pointed that it's not me who wrote the 14/03/83 date on the pass, i get the pass noticed like that 15 years ago.

Message 1 from Richard
"Yes, most of my things were 'acccidentaly' destroyed years ago when I was moving house. I had saved many things from the early gigs. (Posters, flyers, photos etc). I was lucky that I never had to pay to get in because I was always on the guest list. I have known Mark (Gary Marx) since about 1981, he used to live close by and we were friends. I started going to see the Sisters in 1982. The gigs were held in small places and not very well attended. But the audiences grew over the next two years.I also found a ticket/membership card for a gig in Colne, Lancashire on the 14/03/83. Even though it was only a small gig, each one of us had to become a member to get in. The ticket has my name on it, the venue, the date, and 'Sisters of Mercy Crew' is also written on the ticket.

Message 2, after questions because i didn't know this date.
"The gig at 'Francs' in Colne was for sure in March 1983.I can not remember the exact date, but I guess it must be the one on the ticket, unless the ticket was written wrong in the first place.".

Also ...

But yes Dan , this is very strange that Jensen don't notice the 14 March .Actually this date is an enigma for me ...
Also i found strange that Jensen don't list the same that my press-cutting, maybe the dates weren't finish.

spiggymr7 wrote:But yes Dan , this is very strange that Jensen don't notice the 14 March .Actually this date is an enigma for me ...
Also i found strange that Jensen don't list the same that my press-cutting, maybe the dates weren't finish.

perhaps it's just the date of issue?

Yes PIB , I have think like you and I have written this morning to Richard to ask him if he saw the Sisters 1 time or 2 times in March 83 and also in 1982 .I hope that he will answer me ....

According to this tweet, Labour MP Simon Danczuk (whose "queen of the selfie" wife has been in the news lately) might be able to help : https://mobile.twitter.com/simondanczuk ... 7858065409

spiggymr7 wrote:Yes PIB , I have think like you and I have written this morning to Richard to ask him if he saw the Sisters 1 time or 2 times in March 83 and also in 1982 .I hope that he will answer me ....

Also ask him if he was given the pass when he arrived at the venue, or if it was sent in the post.

Dan wrote:The problem with repeating unverified information is it becomes it's own citation.

http://www.ultimatesistersguide.org/documents/1981.htm

7 May 1981 - University of York, York, England
Set
Setlist 1: 1969 • Sister Ray

Setlist 2: The Damage Done • Watch • Teachers • Adrenochrome • Sister Ray • Gimme Gimme Gimme (A Man After Midnight)

Notes
Both setlists are comfirmed, which one is correct?
Setlist 1 I have a recording off, and setlist 2 is comfirmed on Sisters Wiki

Sigh.

Only there is no setlist with Gimme Gimme Gimme (at least) on that page in the SistersWiki ... ...
http://sisterswiki.org/Thu,_07-May-1981

It was there, and taken from the LIFE book ...
Of course, it were quite a benefit to know which songs actually were on the correct setlist ... *sigh, indeed ...

The Life book is just repeating what was known at the time, a lot of mistakes unfortunately. What's the point of endlessly repeating wrong information so it can be copied by other sites and then later gets copied back to the wiki in an endless circle of wrongness!

4th may
damage done, watch, teachers/adrenochrome, sister ray

7th may
1969, sister ray

For years both these recordings circulated incorrectly as "1st gig" and "2nd gig", plus with the dates swapped around, so many bootlegs get it wrong.

But the source is an early demo tape the Sisters made: http://sisterswiki.org/Gary_Marx_Demo_Tape
That's the source of ALL the 4th/7th May bootlegs.

Also the setlist from 16 Feb 81. I was told Pinnel made it up, a best guess to give an idea of what they might have played.
Incidentally I was given a copy of one of Pinnel's tapes, labelled "Leeds 9/5/81" but it was just a very poor copy of an incomplete 15.10.82.

Also, where did this come from?
There;s no recording available as far as I'm aware.
http://sisterswiki.org/Sat,_04-Apr-1981
I'd guess it's partly a misdating of the 4th May gig except the setlist doesn't match.

Dan wrote:The Life book is just repeating what was known at the time, a lot of mistakes unfortunately. What's the point of endlessly repeating wrong information so it can be copied by other sites and then later gets copied back to the wiki in an endless circle of wrongness!

4th may
damage done, watch, teachers/adrenochrome, sister ray

7th may
1969, sister ray

For years both these recordings circulated incorrectly as "1st gig" and "2nd gig", plus with the dates swapped around, so many bootlegs get it wrong.

But the source is an early demo tape the Sisters made: http://sisterswiki.org/Gary_Marx_Demo_Tape
That's the source of ALL the 4th/7th May bootlegs.

Thanks for the info!!! I fully agree. All these errors and wrongs should be fully clarified once and for all ... ...

Better? Or did I get you wrong again (just unable to believe what I was reading) and there is no setlist known at all for these gigs ... ...
http://sisterswiki.org/Mon,_04-May-1981
http://sisterswiki.org/Thu,_07-May-1981

Dan wrote: Also the setlist from 16 Feb 81. I was told Pinnel made it up, a best guess to give an idea of what they might have played.
Incidentally I was given a copy of one of Pinnel's tapes, labelled "Leeds 9/5/81" but it was just a very poor copy of an incomplete 15.10.82.

Also, where did this come from?
There;s no recording available as far as I'm aware.
http://sisterswiki.org/Sat,_04-Apr-1981
I'd guess it's partly a misdating of the 4th May gig except the setlist doesn't match.

Well all these setlists were edited into the SistersWiki by one and the same user, someone I don't know since I joined here only in 2009.
As in the beginning indeed more people from Heartland edited the SistersWiki, it seemed clear to me that all the older information given there were ...err ... waterproof ... ...

I don't understand the relation between Feb16 and 9/5/81 ... while I think the latter could have been from Stafford (5 Sept 81) ... just as an idea ...

However, as soon as you register for an acount with the SistersWiki, you will (again) be able to see the History of all pages,
to compare the various change that were made and to check out who did what ... ...

Being645 wrote:

Dan wrote:The Life book is just repeating what was known at the time, a lot of mistakes unfortunately. What's the point of endlessly repeating wrong information so it can be copied by other sites and then later gets copied back to the wiki in an endless circle of wrongness!

4th may
damage done, watch, teachers/adrenochrome, sister ray

7th may
1969, sister ray

For years both these recordings circulated incorrectly as "1st gig" and "2nd gig", plus with the dates swapped around, so many bootlegs get it wrong.

But the source is an early demo tape the Sisters made: http://sisterswiki.org/Gary_Marx_Demo_Tape
That's the source of ALL the 4th/7th May bootlegs.

Thanks for the info!!! I fully agree. All these errors and wrongs should be fully clarified once and for all ... ...

Better? Or did I get you wrong again (just unable to believe what I was reading) and there is no setlist known at all for these gigs ... ...
http://sisterswiki.org/Mon,_04-May-1981
http://sisterswiki.org/Thu,_07-May-1981

Yeah, the only known setlist is 5 songs and 2 songs, from that demo tape.
Obviously the complete gigs would have had more songs but I don't know anyone who has them.

Bootleg LP makers like to add extra songs and don't always label them correctly.

Being645 wrote:I don't understand the relation between Feb16 and 9/5/81 ... while I think the latter could have been from Stafford (5 Sept 81) ... just as an idea ...

Those two aren't connected.
First I mentioned the setlist for Feb 16. The only song available is Good Things, but last time I asked where that longer setlist came from someone said it was from Pinnel's book... but I was told that Pinnel made the setlist up, not based on any actual tape he had.

Then I mentioned a tape labelled as "9/5/81 Leeds" which the person copying it for me had got from Pinnel, and when I listened to it it was a bad bad quality 20-minute piece of 15.10.82. I was pointing out that if he was partly basing his knowledge of early gigs from that one then he had wrong information.

And this has nothing to do with the wiki, just some of my musings...

I was just thinking that when those 4th & 7th May recordings circulated on bootlegs in the 2nd half of the 80's, bootleg tapes often listed them as "1st gig" and "2nd gig" and most people probably believed that because we didn't know any better.

I remember in 1991 when they announced the 10th anniversary gig as 16th Feb 1991 that came as a surprise to me - that meant those 2 recordings weren't the 1st & 2nd gig as I'd thought. And that's because before the www it was a lot harder to get that sort of information. Various photocopied booklets and fanzines tried to make their own gigography based on the tapes they had (some of which were wrongly dated in the first place) and also based on press cuttings and gig adverts.

Richard answer me for the Colne gig....

Mail 1
I think I saw them just one time in March 1983 at Franc's in Colne. The ticket/pass was possibly issued earlier. Although it is 32 years ago and my memory is not as good as it used to be!

Mail 2
The colne ticket was given out before the show, and I signed it on the night of the gig. Maybe the ticket was issued on the 14th to be used on the 26th. But just one gig I think, not two.

Also few interesting infos:

Also i have seen one gig in in Sheffield (Dingwalls?) in late April or May 1983. I remember being there because Andrew and Mark (Gary) allowed to sit back stage during the gig because I was in a car accident a week before and had badly broken my arm and damaged my eye.It was also one of the first times that the Sisters and a proper merchandise stall at a gig. (Before then, we made and printed our own 'Body Electric' T-Shirts) .
I remember when the Sisters played at Nottingham Rowing Club, and no-one could find Andrew or Patricia ,so we went to look for them. I spotted them on a raft/boat in the middle of the River Trent! It looked really funny. ( Jeffery Lee was not at the Rowing club, just Patricia.(I think 'Guest' of Andrew).
One gig I do remember really well was at Retford Porterhouse in February 1983. It was a small nightclub with two floors. The Sisters I think played upstairs. There were only about 30 - 40 people there, and about 10 of them (Myself included) had travelled down there from Wakefield and Leeds. The 'Locals' were not too pleased to have 'Outsiders' in their nightclub! But it was okay, they did not bother us. It was a really good gig.
For Most of the Gigs in 1983 and 1984 we drove in an old green Lada (A friend called 'Paddy' was the owner) or we just hired an old van, and many of us from Wakefield just piled in the back!
In 1983, the fans from the Wakefield area came up with the name 'God Squad'
Richard

PS For me the Sheffield gig noticed on the mail by Richard is not the usual Sheffield University 25.06.83 gig but maybe Sheffield Dingwalls 20.05.1983 (press cutting + audio tape exist)

small world - I know Paddy

Thanks again to all for the detail here, especially @Dan and particularly @spiggymr7. It feels as if you're sorting out the early days of the gigography one gig at a time, with the ever efficient @Being recording it all for posterity in the Wiki.

Thanks as well for the great information