Heartland

Dan wrote:

copper wrote:Dumping the tracks into iTunes means trickles of royalties, after the corporations (incl. Merciful Release) have taken their cut.

There are no corporations. Since the band aren't signed to a record company - If Andrew cut out the middleman and took it straight to itunes then after itunes had taken their cut (as they do with everyone) the rest of the money would be shared out between the writers & performers. Or am I missing something obvious?

And publishers.

Spiggy's hat wrote:The suggestion that any major record label would be interested in putting a substantial amount of £ into making a new Sisters record, becomes more laughable with each passing year.

Why not, if Andrew (The Sisters of Mercy) approached them with a limited, but reasonable plan? They were dumb not to do so.
I can easiliy imagine an entirely NEW release combined maybe with a Best-Of-The-Past-Decades ... If it were nicely produced
we all would buy it, just like all the recent FALAA and Floodland reissues and the (probably) coming VT re-release ... ...

The Sisters of Mercy are a widely reknown band ... and most people still have them in good memory, even though whole generations
might have lost view of them over the decades - but rather because they had other things to do than overly caring about music at all
(unlike most of us here) and not because especially The Sisters had become so bad ... all a matter of promotion and distribution. They
don't necessarily have to print 500.000 issues right from the beginning ...

OK, Eldritch approaching a record company on his own accord (and with a plan) ... ... Come tomorrow ... ...

Being645 wrote: Why not, if Andrew (The Sisters of Mercy) approached them with a limited, but reasonable plan? They were dumb not to do so.

He's burned too many industry bridges. I love the band, but I, were I a record exec., certainly wouldn't waste capital (on the level the band seems to have expected) on trying to get a record out for them. You don't know if they'd deliver or go on strike again, and you don't know if the market is there to recoup your investment.

The SSV fiasco was amusing to the fans. It sent a very different message to the industry.

They could do a record independently, but I don't think the desire is there.

f you cowrite a song with someone, both of you own the song as "joint-owners" of what the copyright law calls a "joint work". This is irrespective of whether one of you writes the music and the other the lyrics, or you both write music and lyrics. Both of you have an "undivided" ownership in the song (i.e., you each own 50% of the whole song). There is not a separate copyright in the music and lyrics. There is one copyright in both.


As a joint-owner you are legally entitled to exploit the song by yourself without needing the permission of any other joint owner . in fact you are entitled to grant nonexclusive licenses to others without needing the permission of the other joint-owner(s). as mechanical licenses (permission to record songs) are non-exclusive, if alvin and the chipmunks wanted to record "summer" and eldritch ok'd it there wouldnt be a damn thing adam could do to stop them. (try not to dwell too long on that thought -it's soul-shudderingly WRONG lol).

so the "adam wont let us record" argument is non-existent. the fact that the songs in question are nearly 20 years old and are almost all of them standards in the set means the validity of the material as "sisters music" should vouch for itself. financially the band has survived without selling records for eons. before that they learnt quickly that record companies are more trouble than theyre worth; that the money dries up if you dont toe the corporate line. and before that they set-up and ran their own record company without financial security, but free of outside control; with all the hassle of manufacture and distribution and without the modern advantages of the internet and digital downloads etc. so ALL the record company arguments are irrelevant. with his experiences and knowledge if he wanted to release an album it would be logistically easier than it has ever been, or at worst no harder. and besides, a pledge-based campaign would guarantee the money was there beforehand thus solving financing issues without any worries about recovering costs.

in my opinion the problem for eldritch is eldritch's voice. forget what we would accept/forgive/make allowances for/cherish every croak of- it comes down to his pride and what his pride finds acceptable. gigs are transitory and of the moment . concert recordings are made by us, for us; (un)officially sanctioned but not endorsed.
for us poor, deprived creatures a new album would be the prize in itself. so starved are we of new product from our heroes we woudl frankly take almost any old s**t, regardless of its quality.
however for eldritch`a new album presented to the world represents more than just the effort involved in creating it. at the very least it would have to be something that he was justifiably and personally proud of at the time (despite hindsighted mutterings of "baby photos" and complaints over poor production, the last release of by the original sisters was declared "utterly bastard groovy" when it came out). and his voice just ain't going to cut it for him. i dont doubt he's recorded demos with vocals and they aren't going to sound good enough to encourage him to go further. in fact they will show every weakness tenfold. the strength of his voice isnt the only issue and he's so distinctive soundings its not something you can really fake either -artificially extending his range using technology wont fool anyone. a vocodered/autotuned von? bring back those chipmunks....
i think thats why nothing came of the 1995-and-nowhere scenario. that was an album on a plate with only the vocals missing...which is pretty much what we've got now. if he didnt feel up to it then he certainly wont now.

ironically before his current ongoing affliction his voice sounded stronger than it had for years, well it did at rock city anyways. and even there the concert recording shows a voice long past its best.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:f you cowrite a song with someone, both of you own the song as "joint-owners" of what the copyright law calls a "joint work". This is irrespective of whether one of you writes the music and the other the lyrics, or you both write music and lyrics. Both of you have an "undivided" ownership in the song (i.e., you each own 50% of the whole song). There is not a separate copyright in the music and lyrics. There is one copyright in both.


As a joint-owner you are legally entitled to exploit the song by yourself without needing the permission of any other joint owner . in fact you are entitled to grant nonexclusive licenses to others without needing the permission of the other joint-owner(s). as mechanical licenses (permission to record songs) are non-exclusive, if alvin and the chipmunks wanted to record "summer" and eldritch ok'd it there wouldnt be a damn thing adam could do to stop them. (try not to dwell too long on that thought -it's soul-shudderingly WRONG lol).

so the "adam wont let us record" argument is non-existent. the fact that the songs in question are nearly 20 years old and are almost all of them standards in the set means the validity of the material as "sisters music" should vouch for itself. financially the band has survived without selling records for eons. before that they learnt quickly that record companies are more trouble than theyre worth; that the money dries up if you dont toe the corporate line. and before that they set-up and ran their own record company without financial security, but free of outside control; with all the hassle of manufacture and distribution and without the modern advantages of the internet and digital downloads etc. so ALL the record company arguments are irrelevant. with his experiences and knowledge if he wanted to release an album it would be logistically easier than it has ever been, or at worst no harder. and besides, a pledge-based campaign would guarantee the money was there beforehand thus solving financing issues without any worries about recovering costs.

in my opinion the problem for eldritch is eldritch's voice. forget what we would accept/forgive/make allowances for/cherish every croak of- it comes down to his pride and what his pride finds acceptable. gigs are transitory and of the moment . concert recordings are made by us, for us; (un)officially sanctioned but not endorsed.
for us poor, deprived creatures a new album would be the prize in itself. so starved are we of new product from our heroes we woudl frankly take almost any old s**t, regardless of its quality.
however for eldritch`a new album presented to the world represents more than just the effort involved in creating it. at the very least it would have to be something that he was justifiably and personally proud of at the time (despite hindsighted mutterings of "baby photos" and complaints over poor production, the last release of by the original sisters was declared "utterly bastard groovy" when it came out). and his voice just ain't going to cut it for him. i dont doubt he's recorded demos with vocals and they aren't going to sound good enough to encourage him to go further. in fact they will show every weakness tenfold. the strength of his voice isnt the only issue and he's so distinctive soundings its not something you can really fake either -artificially extending his range using technology wont fool anyone. a vocodered/autotuned von? bring back those chipmunks....
i think thats why nothing came of the 1995-and-nowhere scenario. that was an album on a plate with only the vocals missing...which is pretty much what we've got now. if he didnt feel up to it then he certainly wont now.

ironically before his current ongoing affliction his voice sounded stronger than it had for years, well it did at rock city anyways. and even there the concert recording shows a voice long past its best.

I thought that about the copyright should have asked my brother he does intellectual property law.
I think your right about his reluctance to put out a second rate LP but wonder if its a case of the words are not good enough in his opinion. Still doubt we will see anything unless suddenly Von is enraged about something and writes a load of words that are to his liking. He knows he is a quality wordsmith doubt he wants to put out a second rate set.

Alex66 wrote:...Still doubt we will see anything unless suddenly Von is enraged about something...

Someone convince Adam (or another ex-guitarist) to start a kickstarter to release an album under a name similar to the Sisters?

Well, it worked in 86...

Does anyone know why the Sisters had issues with the record company in the first place? Did they refuse an album due to its political leanings or something as happened to Julian Cope with Island. Cope was selling well enough but they did not like what he was saying on his LPs. Vision Thing had sold very well I thought as did the greatest bits albums so unless he wanted to do something they did not like I can't see why they would be reluctant to carry on as it was.

Alex66 wrote:Does anyone know why the Sisters had issues with the record company in the first place? Did they refuse an album due to its political leanings or something as happened to Julian Cope with Island. Cope was selling well enough but they did not like what he was saying on his LPs. Vision Thing had sold very well I thought as did the greatest bits albums so unless he wanted to do something they did not like I can't see why they would be reluctant to carry on as it was.

I seem to remember Eldritch didn't think that the record company's marketing was anywhere near the level they wanted/needed (particularly in the US).

Marketing/promotion quarrels betwix AE and WEA. He wasn't pleased and thought that WEA didn't do their part of the job. That's waht I recall about this thing.
On the background there was huge (personal?) debt, AE owned tons of money WEA because he exceeded scheduled and contract time of recording VT and due to agreement he had to pay whole money for recording PUK rec. studio (one of the most expensive rec. studio at the time).

Easy, children! I totally agree with Bartek. It's pure Eldritch-paranoia and he is constantly working against the band because of that. Of course they will never, EVER release any new music again. For God's sake, they are not even performing any new music live anymore, and haven't been for years and years. "Constantly writing new stuff"...yeah right. Well, clearly not Eldtrich. He simply doesn't do anything. Does he even rehearse with the rest of the band? Since he is forgetting A LOT of lyrics live, and more and more so, i start to wonder. He problably just turns up on the last day before leaving to see what the kids are up to, just in case. A new version of 1959? Can i sing it exactly as the old one? Arrangements all done? Well i guess it's ok then!
They have a official twitter account were everythings happens nowadays, but in interviews, Eldritch says they doesn't? Therefore there is no mention of it on the official page. I struggle to see Chris forgot to put it there, so he simply is't allowed to. I really feel for him, it must be extremely frustrating as it is to all of us, even if we are used to it. And that official site is a joke with EXTREMELY dated information. We all know it, Chris definitely knows it.
I have read Chris twitter mantra "It's not up to me" many times now, and we can all read between the lines. Beacuse he clearly cares. He used to be bit aggressive about it before, and understandable so, but even him seems to have given up on that now. He wants to play, he wants to tour, he needs the money for a living and therefore he have to accept this dysfunktional relationship.

I got that Chris has accepted that there is not likely to be a new recording, finds Von ok and sees it as it is Andrews choice as its his band. It is also a well paid gig and goes along way towards his main project and like many musicians these days if he did not have a load of things like the Sisters he would have to do another job. He is a really nice bloke, thoroughly approachable and his band are f**king tight live. I think he got wound up with people asking him about Sisters records as he has no say in it so don't ask him. Does seem to have a lack of ego that makes him ideal for the gig, no clash with Von's.
I don't know about new songs, given the amount of recordings of shows I could see why they keep them under wraps. Still more likely is there is nothing properly there though.

Leave Chris and Ben aside, they are hired hands.
TSOM is AE, AE is TSOM.
Chris and Ben got chance to get some serious expirience in band that still is able to play some middle and big tours (2006, 2009), recognition, some popularity, laverage and promotion of their own projects (or projects for who they're working for), got money, chance to improve their skill on music, show, logistic and so needed for their own projects, and to see the world. They benefit more than they loss. And, as we heard/read that in the interviews at the beggining of their career in TSOM, they were happy to record new album. They were. Now we don't hear that from them. Chris' backing AE excuses/reasons for not to do so. Ben doesn't give interviews in the name of TSOM.
All we gonna have is reasons to meet up, drink, and buy well designed tees.

Ben, yes, but Chris is a little bit more than just a hired hand nowadays isn't he? Without 100% proof i would say he does all the new arrangements, the t-shirts, the twitter thing, the news section and all the live bookings. More or less everything except the mumbling. Without him Eldtrich would't bother anymore and clearly call it a day. So i would say the future of the band lays in both Chris and Eldritchs hands.

That's true, but still, hired hand, with big range scope of proxy. Although, there's no proof (at not that I know about), that Chris is doing more than PR/media and tw@er and, probably news section.

a few points:

eldritch doesnt think his lyrics are crap. if he did they wouldnt be on the official site for all to see. as there is only an "arbirary"selection i would guess that they are actually the ones he is secrely most proud of; the ones with his favourite little plays-on-words or the ones he considers particularly clever, or whatever. if you read through the selection thats quite apparent i think. there's more popular/widely recognized songs he could have included instead of "summer " and the other four unreleased songs if he wasnt proud of them.

the official sites account of the war with east-west seems to cover all the salient details and ties in with everything else ive read/heard about the situation.

despite what we want, and regardless of the reasons ive hypothesised for it not happening, the basic facts are these:

eldritch doesnt have to release anything new ever again. if he does it will be because HE wants to, for whatever reason(s) and until then he wont. simple.

eldritch doesnt have to write new songs unless he wants to or play them live if he writes them. we may clamour for them but we are not typical of the audiences at sisters gigs. we are fanatical and slightly elitist but god knows there are still more than enough less-enlightened people who dont want to hear the (20 year old) "new"/unreleased songs because they dont know them. i even had an old friend of mine moaning because they dont LOOK like the sisters ("how hard is it for andrew eldritch to look like andrew eldritch? all he's gotta do is put a cowboy hat with on his shades" -ikid you not.)

eldritch doesn't rely on the sisters for his living so ultimately eldritch doesnt even have to play live again if he doesnt want to. fortunately i think he not only wants to but every now and again has to to satisfy the rock-star in him. not as often as we'd like and soon maybe he wont be able to play as often ass HE'D like, but while he IS ... well, to quote Lemmy :

"....It saves me from the cold
and if thats all there is, it ain't so bad.
Rock 'n' Roll"

Will is what he need, need is what he need to record new album/EP/single. And since it seems that there's lack of both we (some us of that still think it's possible) should get use to fact that there will be no new studio album.

Im not saying the songs a crap, but Im not sure they are as magnificent as a lot of the old output. My hypothesis is just that after all this time he would want to put out something that is up there with Floodland etc. As he is in the financial position to not have to record then he is in the position to decide what he wants to put out. That and given how many live shows have been shared I would not if I had a collection of songs I want to eventually record put them out. When I work on a project it is kept to myself and some confidents until its ready to be let into the wild. Obviously I am way way lower down the scale as an artist but would think the same principle applies. Still being in the position where you don't have to work is a double edged sword, I find it a lot harder to get motivated to do something unless I have to say something, but the lack of worry gives complete freedom.

So, i guess that only Sabine (Being645), still believes that there's a chance that they'll ever release any new album/EP/single (?).

it seems we all end up agreeing on the one thing....it ain't gonna happen.

still hope springs eternal..... i'd be happy with the best-quality live audio versions that he has -and we know he has, a la "Suzanne"- of the post '96 unreleased songs on one cd, just to tidy things up. preferably bundled with the long-hinted at/promised live dvd complilation. he couold deliver those with minimal effort. no sweat.
THEN in one last concerted blast of glory a double-A side single boasting studio versions of Summer & Crash and Burn. c 'n'b is a mumble-a-long for von anyway and the sung part of the chorus can be anyone (ie chris). that only leaves ONE SONG he'd have to sing. i'd settle for that.

Bartek wrote:So, i guess that only Sabine (Being645), still believes that there's a chance that they'll ever release any new album/EP/single (?).

I’m here too… So I also think they will release something one day.
Hope dies last.
But if they don’t release anything I will keep on loving them just like in the past… so they don’t really need to make much effort for me.

Joy wrote: But if they don’t release anything I will keep on loving them just like in the past…

of course. for ever and always. that goes without saying.

They enriched my life at some point, opened up for lots of new things, so i got postivie emotion about past, present is based mainly on dissapointment.
Anyhow, since people care, and you, , seems to care, live long and prosper.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:... so ALL the record company arguments are irrelevant. with his experiences and knowledge if he wanted to release an album it would be logistically easier than it has ever been, or at worst no harder. and besides, a pledge-based campaign would guarantee the money was there beforehand thus solving financing issues without any worries about recovering costs.

Totally agree. The only reason for not doing it is
A) Scale of ambition - you are not happy with the smaller niche release and would prefer to come back with a bang or
B) You dont want or need to.

He might not need to because financially the tours pay the bills, feed thd cat etc

He might not want to because as eastmidswhizzkid said pride. Personally i dont think his voice is the problem. It has got stronger and that can be patched up in the studio but there is something pure to The Sister legacy that Von may not now wish to dilute. Its worth considering of the many bands that reformed and released an album after x number of years - how many of their fans now wish they hadnt?
Given the choice of the tantilising promise of new product - which encourages interest and mystique around the artist and the cold hard slab of unforgiving dissapointment that inevitably follows... I know which a lot of people - retrospectively - prefer.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: so ALL the record company arguments are irrelevant. with his experiences and knowledge if he wanted to release an album it would be logistically easier than it has ever been, or at worst no harder. and besides, a pledge-based campaign would guarantee the money was there beforehand thus solving financing issues without any worries about recovering costs.

I agree with practically all Lee said so far
BUT!!
Just something to consider regarding the pledge route.
A few years ago I had the good fortune to sit & chat to the guys from Ulterior over a bottle of vodka & I asked them how the pledge thing worked (they had just done The Bleach Room at the time).
IIRC, the band has to put up about 40% of the dosh themselves.
Then, from whatever else they get pledged, they have to manage all the marketing, artwork, pressing, distribution & all the other stuff that goes into releasing a product & anyone who joined in the EM pledge campaigns will know just how relentlessly Chris kept all the pledgers updated.
For The Sisters to do that, Von would need to be extremely active & be seen as the driver of the project & given he's pretty much handed social media reins to Chris & seemingly avoids the official site for long periods, can anyone see him doing that?

Pista wrote:

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: so ALL the record company arguments are irrelevant. with his experiences and knowledge if he wanted to release an album it would be logistically easier than it has ever been, or at worst no harder. and besides, a pledge-based campaign would guarantee the money was there beforehand thus solving financing issues without any worries about recovering costs.

I agree with practically all Lee said so far
BUT!!
Just something to consider regarding the pledge route.
A few years ago I had the good fortune to sit & chat to the guys from Ulterior over a bottle of vodka & I asked them how the pledge thing worked (they had just done The Bleach Room at the time).
IIRC, the band has to put up about 40% of the dosh themselves.
Then, from whatever else they get pledged, they have to manage all the marketing, artwork, pressing, distribution & all the other stuff that goes into releasing a product & anyone who joined in the EM pledge campaigns will know just how relentlessly Chris kept all the pledgers updated.
For The Sisters to do that, Von would need to be extremely active & be seen as the driver of the project & given he's pretty much handed social media reins to Chris & seemingly avoids the official site for long periods, can anyone see him doing that?

Thats interesting I did not know about the cash up front part, though I think in a way it is good as it shows a bit of dedication. Though If you can avoid that route you will get a better payback as Pledge Music do take a cut, can't remember how much Ill ask a friend next time I see him if he knows.