The Inaugural Heartland Metal Thread!

[Charlie]

Watched a program on Heavy Metal the other day on Sky Arts with loads of great stuff, never realised just how many strands of metal there are. (still not sure what the difference between metal and heavy rock is )
I have to say i'm more into the classic stuff rather than the shall we say more obscure!
There was one on there - Baby Metal - combining metal and Japanese pop culture, have to pass on that!

[Swinnow]

Charlie's post above has reminded me of a question.... Where do people think hard/heavy rock ends and metal begin? In my head the cross-over point is Motorhead.

[EvilBastard]

Charlie's post above has reminded me of a question.... Where do people think hard/heavy rock ends and metal begin? In my head the cross-over point is Motorhead.

Could be related to the name - if it's definitely a "metal" name then it's metal, otherwise it's rock. Looking through my record collection:

Metal:
Mötörhead
Judas Priest
Iron Maiden (no sniggering at the back)
W.A.S.P. (any more of that and it's detention for the lot of you)

Rock:
Fog Hat
Def Leppard
Queensryche
Whitesnake (the purchase of which may have had more to do with
that video than anything anything else...
Skid Row (I'm not joking)
Hawkwind
Creedence
Ugly Kid Joe (last warning!)
ZZ Top
Deep Purple
Alice Cooper
Blüe öyster cült
Quireboys (that's it. 4 o'clock, my office)

[Big Si]

Charlie's post above has reminded me of a question.... Where do people think hard/heavy rock ends and metal begin? In my head the cross-over point is Motorhead.

Could be related to the name - if it's definitely a "metal" name then it's metal, otherwise it's rock.

I'd have to go with my own Formula of -

Volume + "Weight" + Style/Delivery/Intensity = Heavy Metal or Hard Rock

For Style/Delivery/Intensity, the dirtier/rougher it sounds or feels then that's Heavy. If it's "cleaner/polished" then it's Hard Rock.

Oh and of course http://dai.ly/x4mir4r?start=832

[markfiend]

If I don't like it then it's metal, if I do then it's rock.

[markfiend]

If I don't like it then it's metal, if I do then it's rock.

I might have that the wrong way round

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Weird. I never saw Motörhead as either rock, metal or punk. As they say themselves, (SAID, now, alas): "We Play Rock 'n' Roll" and indeed, i always saw them like that.
A very heavy rock 'n' roll band

For the rest, I never really bothered much with then indistinct line between hard rock and metal. I listen to it, I like it, then it's ok

Saw a band last weekend on Graspop called Tribulation, playing a very cool mix of new wave and rock with a voice like Celtic Frost, very nice!
One of the few band I saw, unfortunately, due to a severe knee injury on day one of the festival, I was only able to see some bands on my list... almost no headliners...
And.... I did not see Emperor live. That hurt more than my knee...

[Charlie]

Weird. I never saw Motörhead as either rock, metal or punk. As they say themselves, (SAID, now, alas): "We Play Rock 'n' Roll" and indeed, i always saw them like that.
A very heavy rock 'n' roll band

For the rest, I never really bothered much with then indistinct line between hard rock and metal. I listen to it, I like it, then it's ok

I never like to bother with labels either, they just confuse me! I don't know why everything has to be categorized to the Nth degree!

I grew up listening to my parents records, mostly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Queen, Uriah Heep, Pink Floyd, all that stuff, they just called it Rock if anything.

It's like The Sisters being called Gothic Rock - i don't see that at all, but then i've discovered all their styles of music at the same time, not progressively.

At school you were supposed to be in one camp, but i liked rock, indie, grunge, metal, i'm even partial to some late 80's/early 90's dance rave!

Basically if i like it, i like it, i don't care which pigeon hole it came from.

Let's just go back to calling everything Rock 'n' Roll and then everyone can join in.

[Big Si]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

[Pista]

Fortuitous timing as Rolling Stone (who reeeeaaally like lists) publish a (you guessed it) list of the 100 greatest metal albums of all time.
OF ALL TIME!! \m/

[sultan2075]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

Thank you for reminding me that this exists. Fucking awesome.

[zaltys7]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

[Big Si]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

CD, Vinyl or Picture Disc?

[zaltys7]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

CD, Vinyl or Picture Disc?

Thanks, along with Tau Cross, I have two new favourite bands.

[sultan2075]

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

CD, Vinyl or Picture Disc?

Thanks, along with Tau Cross, I have two new favourite bands.

Can't wait for Pillar of Fire . Hopefully I can catch them live.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

Do keep in mind that the album comes BEFORE this live outfit. Listen to that before you buy. SInce it was a solo project to begin with, it was recorded with a drum computer and other tricks and treats. I have it and loved Zeal & Ardor from that time on, but they are getting better and better with this liveband...

File under "Whaddayamean, there's nothing new and interesting going on in music?"

IZ.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Another gem that can be filed under "interestingly disturbing music"...

IGORRR.

Mix glitchcore, baroque and black metal and you are partially there.
Also add that 90 percent of the musicians involved have some degree or other in Music and it becomes VERY interesting indeed.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zRU-VU87HI

IZ.

[zaltys7]

Gospel meets Black Metal - https://youtu.be/kWm7kipmC8o

With thanks to mybelgiannemesis

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

Do keep in mind that the album comes BEFORE this live outfit. Listen to that before you buy. SInce it was a solo project to begin with, it was recorded with a drum computer and other tricks and treats. I have it and loved Zeal & Ardor from that time on, but they are getting better and better with this liveband...

File under "Whaddayamean, there's nothing new and interesting going on in music?"

IZ.

I bought it and love it. My local independent store said the could get it for me at £14.99. HMV had it for a tenner. This is good stuff, in it's own way it reminds me of Swordfishtromones by Tom Waites, the through line is there but we are gonna take a massive detour on the way

Thanks to Big Si and Izzy HaveMercy.

[sultan2075]

That was the best song I've heard in a very, very long time. anyone care to elaborate?

I'm old fashioned, I'd rather buy it than rip it.

Do keep in mind that the album comes BEFORE this live outfit. Listen to that before you buy. SInce it was a solo project to begin with, it was recorded with a drum computer and other tricks and treats. I have it and loved Zeal & Ardor from that time on, but they are getting better and better with this liveband...

File under "Whaddayamean, there's nothing new and interesting going on in music?"

IZ.

I bought it and love it. My local independent store said the could get it for me at £14.99. HMV had it for a tenner. This is good stuff, in it's own way it reminds me of Swordfishtromones by Tom Waites, the through line is there but we are gonna take a massive detour on the way

Thanks to Big Si and Izzy HaveMercy.

I can see the Tom Waits comparison, but to me, it sounds like The Good Son-era Bad Seeds trying to play black metal. And failing in a really interesting way.

[UniversalRinging]

Fantastic! Looks like I have a few interesting new (to me) projects to check out this week. Thanks for the heads up everyone.

Swinnow and Charlie: You know, I've been thinking about this distinction between metal and hard rock for a few minutes and every time I want to point out something definitive, it doesn't really stand. Musically it's difficult, because I'm not a musician or a music theorist and therefore don't have the vocabulary to express the differences I can hear/feel. I want to say that metal is far less bluesy than hard rock, that the modes and scales are different, but I can't really elaborate more on that. Also, and perhaps on a related point, there isn't much sex, love or romance in metal subject matter. Instead, the subjects are more misanthropic. I'm going to discount the power ballad here, because those are flat out pop songs which MOR metal bands featured on their albums as a response to that aforementioned lack. And as a way to appeal to a broader audience.

I agree with Big Si in that attitude and style have a lot to do with the difference between hard rock and metal. And for me personally, with metal I like, a certain amount of non-mainstream mindedness. I also agree with Charlie that with most of the late sixties- early seventies bands, it's difficult to draw a line between hard rock and metal. With the exception of Black Sabbath in my opinion, because they certainly sang about misanthropic subjects AND were less bluesy, because of Iommi's f**ked up fingers or whatever. I suppose in the end, the distinction is: I know it when I hear it. But it was fun to try to put it into words.

[Swinnow]

@UR I adore Black Sabbath, blame my mate's older siblings for getting me into them in the 70's. Jeez, I even saw the Born Again Gillan line up at Reading in '83 lol. Today Vol.4 has featured in my soundtrack, let's rock kids x.

They're heavy rock not metal though, me, a snob, never....

[UniversalRinging]

Swinnow: I guess we agree and disagree. Beautiful how that works, ha!

Today I stumbled across footage of Napalm Death playing Glastonbury, and I can’t say I wish I was there, but it looked like fun. Incongruous, and inspired in that context for sure. Anyway, in celebration of ND, their first album’s upcoming thirtieth anniversary and its position as my gateway into the metal genres, I give you:



Napalm Death: Scum

Back in my early teens, my obsession with punk music mushroomed in a really short amount of time. Say, between the ages of thirteen and fourteen. I want to say it all started with Black Flag, after all, I grew up in LA and local underground music did (unthinkable here these days) get airplay on the radio at night. I had a few like-minded friends and we shared mixtapes, we hung out at record shops on the weekend, and there was a time when we were devouring everything British that we could get our hands on. Crass, Amebix and Discharge, that kind of thing. That led to passing around a tape, second or third hand, with Scum on one side and I think Nausea’s Extinction on the other. The rest is history. Scum was the first extreme record I heard, led me to countless other bands and records and still influences my taste in metal. It’s not “evil� or occult or Satan-worshiping or misogynistic or corny in any way. It’s a primal, atavistic expression of disgust and discontent, yet funny and not self-serious. I put it on for a quick boost of energy, to reset my concentration and to wash away telephone customer service experiences. Happy Anniversary!

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Swinnow: I guess we agree and disagree. Beautiful how that works, ha!

Today I stumbled across footage of Napalm Death playing Glastonbury, and I can’t say I wish I was there, but it looked like fun. Incongruous, and inspired in that context for sure. Anyway, in celebration of ND, their first album’s upcoming thirtieth anniversary and its position as my gateway into the metal genres, I give you:



Napalm Death: Scum

Back in my early teens, my obsession with punk music mushroomed in a really short amount of time. Say, between the ages of thirteen and fourteen. I want to say it all started with Black Flag, after all, I grew up in LA and local underground music did (unthinkable here these days) get airplay on the radio at night. I had a few like-minded friends and we shared mixtapes, we hung out at record shops on the weekend, and there was a time when we were devouring everything British that we could get our hands on. Crass, Amebix and Discharge, that kind of thing. That led to passing around a tape, second or third hand, with Scum on one side and I think Nausea’s Extinction on the other. The rest is history. Scum was the first extreme record I heard, led me to countless other bands and records and still influences my taste in metal. It’s not “evil� or occult or Satan-worshiping or misogynistic or corny in any way. It’s a primal, atavistic expression of disgust and discontent, yet funny and not self-serious. I put it on for a quick boost of energy, to reset my concentration and to wash away telephone customer service experiences. Happy Anniversary!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKwSUB7l_4

IZ.

[million voices]

In my ill considered opinion the difference between Heavy Rock and Heavy Metal falls in to three main areas :-
TROUSERAGE / ATTITUDE / TIMING

TROUSERAGE - If the band are 100% spandex then the band are metal. If they are wearing denim or an assortment of materials then they can be defined as rock.

ATTITUDE - All musicians deep down want to be admired for their ability and musicianship. With Heavy Rock this is on the surface "Gosh look how good I can play". With Heavy Metal it takes second place to the overall spectacle.

TIMING - The phrase "Metal" was only coined (I think) in the early 80s so bands before that they were "Rock" and bands after that tend to be called "Metal".
eg If one takes Glam as an example in the early 70s it was "Glam Rock". When it was revived in the early 80s it was "Glam Metal". Although the 80s bands were a lot "heavier" than the 70s originals.

Of course there are many variations to these rules or they wouldn't be true

[EvilBastard]

TIMING - The phrase "Metal" was only coined (I think) in the early 80s so bands before that they were "Rock" and bands after that tend to be called "Metal".
eg If one takes Glam as an example in the early 70s it was "Glam Rock". When it was revived in the early 80s it was "Glam Metal". Although the 80s bands were a lot "heavier" than the 70s originals.

Of course there are many variations to these rules or they wouldn't be true

That got me thinking - I mean, how and why do we refer to music in terms of "metal" and "rock"?

Rock is perhaps a little easier. If we accept the origin of "juke box" as a reference to a brothel (or "juke joint") (which apparently comes from a gullah word, joog meaning "rowdy", then it follows that the act of rock and roll referring to the manufacture of the two-backed beast would come to describe the music that one might typically hear in a juke joint.

Since the qualification for "rock & roll" might be reasonably considered to be the inclusion of an electric guitar (at least, originally), and is generally in 4/4 time (borrowing from a standard blues template), all later genres of "rock" (garage, prog, surf, folk, etc.) have this foundation. "Hard" rock (perhaps, because it's hard to listen to, featuring distortion and raucousness) still follows the fundamentals - I tried this out with the 'head's Ace of Spades and it definitely follows a clear 4/4 time sig. We might conclude, therefore, that they're a rock band, rather than a metal band.

Metal is a bit more difficult. Burroughs used "heavy metal" to refer to addictive drugs, and one of his novels features The Heavy Metal Kid. There's also a tie-in to hippy-speak, heavy to mean deep or profound with metal describing the mood. Iron Butterfly's Heavy album, and Steppenwolf's Born to be Wild (with its reference to "heavy metal thunder" may be the earliest references to "heavy metal" in terms of a distinct musical genre.

As to what makes a band metal? More difficult. I'd be inclined to say Priest was metal rather than rock, and they've been around since the last 60s (I suspect Halford's been wearing the same codpiece since then), but their earlier work (thinking Rocka-Rolla Woman and similar) definitely sounds more rock than metal. Sabbath, Deep Purple and Zep are often credited with being the progenitors of NWOBHM (a term coined in 1979), with Fleppard and Maiden being the most obvious bands in this genre (although the Flep, aside from album art, strikes me as more rock than metal).

Or maybe there isn't a clear line that can be drawn. I've known people who like Metallica (a band for whom, quite honestly, there is no excuse - I appreciate that this may be a minority opinion, but Lars Shouty-Pants would have been better off sticking to his old job at the local Orange Julius), Megadeth, and that ilk, look down on Priest and Sabbath as "not being metal" which baffles me - aside from the frankly desperate clutching at names in the hopes of sounding "more metal" (Anthrax? Really?), they seem to have lost the point of "music" and gone down the "What's your loudest amp, Mr. Shopkeeper? Right - we'll have 4 of those, please" road. Fair enough, I suppose.

But then again, perhaps we can confound the Mail readers and the "Angry from Worksop" brigade who think that people who listen to metal or rock are all uneducated - since we're clearly having some reasoned discourse on this topic, perhaps it's enough that we can share the music we love, maybe introduce people to bands that they've not otherwise have heard ("Oh, if you like Syphilitic Swans From Uranus then I think you'll really enjoy this - they're called Fuzzy Wuzzy Fuckpigs From Hell and they've got a new album out called "I Came Blood And Your Daughter Drank It And Asked For More".)