Heartland

Dear Record Store Day, for next year I would like to pay considerably over the odds for a 12 inch copy of the Full Length Neverland that plays at 45 rpm... So I can slow it down to 33 and crank it up.
Your sincerely...

mh wrote: ↑20 Feb 2024, 20:19

ribbons69 wrote: ↑20 Feb 2024, 03:57 I'm afraid I am a little disdainful of the "it sounds better on vinyl " crowd that are playing their new lp's through really cheap record players. Vinyl sounds really good through my high end system, but then so does a cd. The difference is the price, retail prices for lp's are getting a little silly imo.

My setup sounds better with vinyl, but that's because I intentionally built it to sound better with vinyl. It's still the case that good digital will sound better than bad vinyl, of course, but with everything else being equal vinyl is clearer, more open, more layered and with better rhythm and dynamics. I've settled into preferring vinyl for when I want to sit back and listen to an LP, but digital for background music when I'm doing something else. Works for me.

My missus' band released an album in 2021. Long story short, it was a pain in the ass sonically speaking and took a very good while to mix and master it. Top notch german studio, engineer and a very well known producer. When everybody was finally happy with the máster, the engineer told them it wouldn't fit in a vinyl, which was their idea for releasing it. Not for the length, it's like 39 minutes long. Not for the number of tracks per song, I think the most tracks sounding simoultaneously in a song were like 7 or 8 and most of the time were like 4 or so. It was the depth, the thickness of the music (it's mostly synths) that wouldn't fit to a vinyl pressing, they would had to remix and remaster it. Well, they tried for a couple of months, but no matter what they did, none of the remixes sounded as good as the original mix. So they released it in a cd and digital.

Now, you can say It was a matter of the engineer ability to do It, I hear it all the time when I tell somebody the story. Not gonna disclose who he is, but can assure you his studio and himself are extremely well considered and his background is amazing, that's why they booked him in the first place. It's simply that digital allowed them to go to a place sonically with that first mix that vinyl is not fit for. You can use a lot of tricks to deceive the ear and make it sound similar, that's what they did for those extra two months, but the difference was there, believe me. And I'm not talking about a 24/192, 2 GB of data version. Just the 16/44, 350 MB cd sounded way, way better fhan the final vinyl master they got in the end.

z666 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2024, 12:23

mh wrote: ↑20 Feb 2024, 20:19

ribbons69 wrote: ↑20 Feb 2024, 03:57 I'm afraid I am a little disdainful of the "it sounds better on vinyl " crowd that are playing their new lp's through really cheap record players. Vinyl sounds really good through my high end system, but then so does a cd. The difference is the price, retail prices for lp's are getting a little silly imo.

My setup sounds better with vinyl, but that's because I intentionally built it to sound better with vinyl. It's still the case that good digital will sound better than bad vinyl, of course, but with everything else being equal vinyl is clearer, more open, more layered and with better rhythm and dynamics. I've settled into preferring vinyl for when I want to sit back and listen to an LP, but digital for background music when I'm doing something else. Works for me.

My missus' band released an album in 2021. Long story short, it was a pain in the ass sonically speaking and took a very good while to mix and mastered it. Top notch german studio, engineer and a very well known producer. When everybody was finally happy with the máster, the engineer told them it wouldn't fit in a vinyl, which was their idea for releasing it. Not for the length, it's like 39 minutes long. Not for the number of tracks per song, I think the most tracks sounding simoultaneously in a song were like 7 or 8 and most of the time were like 4 or so. It was the depth, the thickness of the music (it's mostly synths) that wouldn't fit to a vinyl pressing, they would had to remix and remaster it. Well, they tried for a couple of months, but no matter what they did, none of the remixes sounded as good as the original mix. So they released it in a cd and digital.

Now, you can say It was a matter of the engineer ability to do It, I hear it all the time when I tell somebody the story. Not gonna disclose who he is, but can assure you his studio and himself are extremely well considered and his background is amazing, that's why they booked him in the first place. It's simply that digital allowed them to go to a place sonically with that first mix that vinyl is not fit for. You can use a lot of tricks to deceive the ear and make it sound similar, that's what they did for those extra two months, but the difference was there, believe me. And I'm not talking about a 24/196, 2 GB of data version. Just the 16/44, 350 MB cd sounded way, way better fhan the final vinyl master they got in the end.

Interesting insight for all the vinyl enthusiasts out there. Also interesting because it raises the obvious question, what's your missus's band?

So got mine earlier today, cranking it for the neighbours right now. So far so good, the Body & Soul side has the correct version of Body Electric, and the Walk Away side adds Long Train, so it was at least compiled by somebody who knows what they're doing. It does feel a bit of a cheap package though, but one mustn't be churlish. New-old Sisters product on prominent display in the shops is more than we normally get.

mh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2024, 15:34 So got mine earlier today, cranking it for the neighbours right now. So far so good, the Body & Soul side has the correct version of Body Electric, and the Walk Away side adds Long Train, so it was at least compiled by somebody who knows what they're doing. It does feel a bit of a cheap package though, but one mustn't be churlish. New-old Sisters product on prominent display in the shops is more than we normally get.

I picked up one as well. I quite like it. Agree on the cheap packaging though... price was also high for a single LP. 40 euros! (for example the double LP Soft Cell - Non Stop Erotic Extended was only 36 euros)

I got mine today! It's a great selection of songs and the record itself is blue. I wish they did more with the packaging though.

I bought this and the Thrill Kill Kult release, mainly just for the excitement of buying a "new record" by both these bands.

My ear is far too bad to be an audiophile, but I do enjoy having some physical media as it's generally more fun with the ritual of sitting down and actively listening to it. When I stream, I tend to get distracted and start doing other things.

I just ordered it from an indie store in the US. It's much cheaper here, like $25-$30. If I already had all these songs on vinyl in my collection one way or another, I am not sure that I would necessarily be getting this. But I don't think that I even have a proper digital or vinyl version of Afterhours, so I went for it. Glad to hear that it sounds pretty good - looking forward to testing it out in a week or so.

Picked this up, the Nephilim, Siousie and The Cure pic disk.

Must upgrade my audio system based on comments above...

So I have tested this out, it sounds very good. And the song flow is very nice. The guitars on Long Train sound especially powerful. Maybe I just wasn't paying close attention to them before. If you don't have these songs on vinyl and can get this for a decent price, I would definitely recommend it.

gothboy wrote: ↑20 Feb 2024, 21:46 I am kind of hoping for another Radio Sessions situation where after we pay over the odds for vinyl we will never listen to they then do a cheap CD release we can play in the car because unless i am mistaken it is only the body and soul stuff that hasn't had a CD release through the reissue LPs (notwithstanding a track on overbombing) and I am certainly of the view that vinyl on a high end stereo with a near new needle costing hundreds of pounds might sound better than CD anything less than that probably doesn't

The whole thing was issued in 24-bit years ago.

That digital remaster was likely used for this vinyl cut and would probably be downsampled if a CD was ever to appear.

Well....What can I say that not be written already.... I popped into Newcastle yesterday after seeing three different record shops all were still stocking Body & Soul/ Walk Away 12"...an hour later I was home and all I can say is,
It’s a bit cheap looking (the 12" record, I hasten to add, not my home! ) ...
Whoever is responsible for papping these 40th anniversary 12" out must be cashing in big style...at least on the last two Sisters Record Store releases, the sleeves looked good, but this one with the two original fronts, stuck back-to-back, just looks awful and half-hearted if I’m honest. As with the last two releases, just a plain black inner sleeve. I mean, come on...they are advertising it as a 40th anniversary release.... life begins at 40 apparently, but this looks like it’s just trying to reclaim lost youth...
Don't get me wrong, it sounds brilliant when it was on the turntable, it always will.
Even if just some recording notes, personnel involved etc were added, would have looked like at least some effort was made to justify a £35 price tag...
The fact that this record is still easily available (well, certainly in Newcastle!) some two weeks after RSD24 speaks volumes to me...But having said all that, I would rather have a not so brilliant reissue of a Sisters record than no Sisters record at all.... If AE isn’t going to release anything, the people involved in these reissues need to wise up before any further records are papped out…….

I just think the band deserve better !!!!

Well....What can I say that has not been written already.... I popped into Newcastle yesterday after seeing three different record shops all were still stocking Body & Soul/ Walk Away 12"...an hour later I was home and all I can say is,
It’s a bit cheap looking (the 12" record, I hasten to add, not my home! ) ...
Whoever is responsible for papping these 40th anniversary 12" out must be cashing in big style...at least on the last two Sisters Record Store releases, the sleeves looked good, but this one with the two original fronts, stuck back-to-back, just looks awful and half-hearted if I’m honest. As with the last two releases, just a plain black inner sleeve. I mean, come on...they are advertising it as a 40th anniversary release.... life begins at 40 apparently, but this looks like it’s just trying to reclaim lost youth...
Don't get me wrong, it sounds brilliant when it was on the turntable, it always will.
Even if just some recording notes, personnel involved etc were added, would have looked like at least some effort was made to justify a £35 price tag...
The fact that this record is still easily available (well, certainly in Newcastle!) some two weeks after RSD24 speaks volumes to me...But having said all that, I would rather have a not so brilliant reissue of a Sisters record than no Sisters record at all.... If AE isn’t going to release anything, the people involved in these reissues need to wise up before any further records are papped out…….

I just think the band deserve better !!!!

Yeah, but why bother? This RSD started with some interesting stuff ten years ago. Live, rare or even unreleased stuff at reasonable prices, double vinyls for 35-40€, single ones in the 20's... But that's gone, now it's all re-releases and price has doubled. Why? Because we buy them anyway, so they don't bother anymore, it's just like that. Minimum effort.

Maybe we should stop buying them RSD releases and see what happens. Most bands aren't making any money out of it, and I've been told that the record stores' cut is also minimum, so the real harm would be to the labels. And they deserve It if you ask me.

z666 wrote: ↑06 May 2024, 16:26 Yeah, but why bother? This RSD started with some interesting stuff ten years ago. Live, rare or even unreleased stuff at reasonable prices, double vinyls for 35-40€, single ones in the 20's... But that's gone, now it's all re-releases and price has doubled. Why? Because we buy them anyway, so they don't bother anymore, it's just like that. Minimum effort.

When you sat "they don't bother anymore" who are "they"? It's not a conglomerate, it's individual record labels. That said I should be transparent and say that despite owning a record player and a few 100 lp's I've never been interested in RSD. I much prefer the cd. I was pleased when Motorhead released the cd boxset of all those RSD live albums that have been released in the last few years. Much cheaper than buying the original lp's as well.

"They" are all of them. Obviously the Big ones that do 90% of the releases. And also the small, indie labels who have copied their strategy.

Some posts above I mentioned my wife's band experience with vinyl mastering. At the same time, september 2020, we were working with the pressing plant (a polish one) the specifics of the vinyl release. The plan was a 180 gr. gatefold, thick cardboard reverse print and some other stuff related to the inks and blablabla. 500 copies and the final price was going to be around 9 euros per copy. 6 to 8 weeks delivery time. To put It into context, I got a friend who runs a small metal label and at the time he paid, in a different pressing plant, around 5,5 euros per copy for a 140 gr, single folder, regular cardboard vinyl. Also 500 copies.

Then came the mastering issue and they decided to go with cd's first. Digifile one, just like the Sisters BBC sessions from a couple of years ago. 1,15 euros per copy it costed, edition of 1000 that first one. In the summer of 2021 the vinyl máster was finally ready and we got in touch with the pressing plant again. Same specifications. The 9 euros per copy had turned into 15, the 6 to 8 weeks into 6 months. With a warning: every order bigger than, in our case, 500 copies would go in front of ours. And they were coming, they warned us. Obviously we said no, thanks.

Now things have gone a bit back to normal regarding the price. I checked the other day with a couple of pressing plants and they budgeted me around 10-11 euros per copy. Delivery times are still a mess, the original polish plant continues with the same six months policy, but you can find some smaller (and more expensive) ones that are offering two to three months. Big labels get better deals, obviously.

You've all been reading from small labels complaining about the bigger ones having hijacked the pressing industry, right? Well, it's all true. That one I talked about earlier was my friend's last vinyl edition. About 100 of the copies he received were warped. He contacted the pressing plant and basically they told him to go fu*k himself, they had enough work coming from RSD to let go of a loyal client, over 15 years and 30 or 40 releases. Now he only makes cd's and plans to continue that way in the foreseable future.

^^ Your post shines light on the dark side of RSD. When people spend money on something the corporations will make sure to get in on that. The ethics of the whole chain are questionable in my view.

Oh, ethics have been always questionable in the music industry. What this RSD/Vinyl/collectors fever has definitely ruined is quality control. It's not only the prices, a lot of the pressings are s*it.

But customers have also their say in this. Vinyl has become a fetish, people want it no matter what, and not to listen to it. Back to my wife's álbum, when they announced It was gonna be a CD and not a vinyl they got a lot (a lot considering their size, obviously, I mean some dozens) of people complaining about It. They even explained in a couple of interviews what was the problem and that the proper way to listen to their album was CD/digital, that was the version they were totally satisfied with. People kept complaining anyway, they wanted the f*cking vinyl even after the artists themselves said that version would sound different, and in many ways worse, than the digital. They don't care, mainly because they won't play It. They want the fetish

And the industry feeds on that fetish. Feasts on that fetish. Why wouldn't, they're giving people what they want, right? Not what they need.

z666 wrote: ↑07 May 2024, 18:05 Oh, ethics have been always questionable in the music industry. What this RSD/Vinyl/collectors fever has definitely ruined is quality control. It's not only the prices, a lot of the pressings are s*it.

But customers have also their say in this. Vinyl has become a fetish, people want it no matter what, and not to listen to it. Back to my wife's álbum, when they announced It was gonna be a CD and not a vinyl they got a lot (a lot considering their size, obviously, I mean some dozens) of people complaining about It. They even explained in a couple of interviews what was the problem and that the proper way to listen to their album was CD/digital, that was the version they were totally satisfied with. People kept complaining anyway, they wanted the f*cking vinyl even after the artists themselves said that version would sound different, and in many ways worse, than the digital. They don't care, mainly because they won't play It. They want the fetish

And the industry feeds on that fetish. Feasts on that fetish. Why wouldn't, they're giving people what they want, right? Not what they need.

People forget why vinyl was phased out.

However, with the industry trend of brickwalling digital files and CD, vinyl offers an alternative for those who enjoy dynamics in music.

To that extent I'm grateful that there are people willing to buy and rip modern releases. One must either live with compressed digital or the distortion of vinyl now. This, when quality of manufacture and circuitry supposedly surpass that of the past.

It follows that by now we should have BluRay Audio players and media but the industry wants to sell us poor quality products so that they can sell it again down the line. It does not want us to have studio quality releases on indestructible media formats.

The consumer gets shafted no matter what.

@z666 has mentioned something incredibly important.
Small/emerging acts simply get pushed out. Pressing plants will gladly soil their collective kleenex for huge runs & push genuine new talent to the back of the queue because of $$ & the fact we all really want to have 43 vinyl variants of the latest rolling stones album.

Pista wrote: ↑07 May 2024, 20:38 Small/emerging acts simply get pushed out. Pressing plants will gladly soil their collective kleenex for huge runs & push genuine new talent to the back of the queue because of $$ & the fact we all really want to have 43 vinyl variants of the latest rolling stones album.

I'm sorry, but if the emergence of your "genuine new music talent" is gated behind the production of retro physical artifacts for consumers who aren't going to listen to them then you're not really in the music business, you're in the fashion business. Go sell some T-shirts and forget about f**king vinyl?

^^Seems like that was a mic drop moment...

T

The vinyl fetish also works with bands, absolutely. It has become kind of a status thing, something like "anybody can release a CD, Vinyl it's for real bands". We got through something like that recently with a friend who had to wait two years and a half to have his album finally released on Vinyl by a label, and he wouldn't, by any chance, have gone in a different way: he wanted a label and a Vinyl, whatever it'd take. What It took, we suspect, is he ended up paying for at least some of the pressing. We'll find out soon. But there's a even bigger reason for that: the vinyl fetish of the audiences. Word in the live business, which is the environment where most bands sell records, is people do not but CDs, period.

I don't know about that enough because my wife's band very seldom play live, all their sales are through Bandcamp and their label's webstores. A couple of months ago we went to a Swans show, and in the twenty minutes or so we were in the theatre's entrance hall, where the merch stand was, before the show, they sold like 40 vinyls and just one cd. Oh, and probably another dozen books, Gira put out kind of a diary with song lyrics and other stuff, really interesting. It's like 400 A4 pages. 30 euros. As I said, before the show they sold like 12, probably some more after because Gira always comes to the merch to sign stuff. I was gonna mention It at some point in the new Sisters' album thread because Swans are one of the perfect examples of how you can maintain independency inside the music industry. Gira always does some kind of fundraiser before a new album. The last one was for the forthcoming double vinyl, another album with demos of the songs (other times he has done live cd's), an exclusive t-shirt, a signed lithography and some other things. A hundred bucks in the USA, 140 with shipping to Europe. They got a little over 1000 backers the last time, do the math. And his merch prices at the shows are ridiculously low: 15 euros the double cd's, 18 a triple one, single vinyls 20 euros, double vinyls 25 and a triple one 28.

As I said, they sold a whole lot of vinyls and books, me included, we got the book and the Children Of God double vinyl (there wasn't a CD release for that one, in case you're thinking I don't practice what I preach...) 55 euros both. I did see just one guy buying a cd. Just one. Maybe they sold a few more when I wasn't tlooking, but while I was all the sales were vinyls. To your point, alanm, nobody bought a shirt that I'd seen. 15 or 20 euros they were priced.

So, it's a double point I'm making: you can be a big, respected band with a record deal and release albums every now and then and still don't rip off your fans with merch prices (see, Eldritch?). And people, in bands but specially the audiences, want f*cking vinyls. Period.

z666 wrote: ↑09 May 2024, 10:45 To your point, alanm..

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I absolutely didn't mean to disrespect any working artists, who no doubt have done the math and know what it takes far better than I.

I don't get the vinyl "fetish" at all personally, but that's just me I suppose.