Heartland

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

Promoters would have something to push, old fans who'd fallen away would have something to let them re-engage with the band, and new fans would have something they could stream in advance of the shows. We're in a golden age for bands with a legacy - lots of them are making bank again, trading off having back catalogues of hits built at a time when they were given time to develop and mature. That's now extremely difficult for new acts to do.

And again, there's nothing wrong with performing music on your own terms, but there are consequences to making it willfully difficult to share new music.

It's a remarkable tribute to the band that they've been able to sustain a touring career, but this here is where it ends - you can't open up new markets and expand your reach without engaging in the process of promotion. If you don't want to expand your reach, then that's fine. But you can't both have your cake (not release) and eat it (tour new territories to expanding crowds).

This. 100%.

Honestly? I for one find it keen and tough to do a US-tour after almost 20 years and another, larger one already the next year ! ... ...
And that after the 1991 debacle. Trauma overcome ... ...

As to larger venues, new territories, new crowds, they keep on coming with every tour, see Australia or various Latin American countries or all the European cities The Sisters have been playing for the first time in recent years... ... and were invitied to come over next time round again ... ...

Well, of course there are people who find their reason in life in cashing in, gaining more and more and ever more fame and glory at any cost ... others don't ... ...

If Von was that fussed or upset about the potential for downsizing, which has been looking likely for a while, he'd have done something to counter it. He hasn't so presumably he isn't, so I don't see any reason or need for anyone else to be. Anyone doing so is just getting upset over their own expectations, which ought by now to be more effectively managed when it comes to matters Sisterly. You'd have thought.

I'd ask about proper promotio we're on a Flashback Avenue, because i didn't see much recent interviews in the apprppriate section here. But that another pair of socks.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

An argument with absolutely zero evidence behind it apart from wishcasting and vibes. Sorry to put it bluntly, but yeah.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 21:59

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

An argument with absolutely zero evidence behind it apart from wishcasting and vibes. Sorry to put it bluntly, but yeah.

Okay, i'm listening. Why do you think they've had to reduce the size of the venues they're playing? And how would you suggest they could have avoided this?

They're one of my favourite bands. I think they're great, and am puzzled that more people don't think that. I think they should be playing to ever larger crowds, not smaller ones. I also think they sound much better when they get to play through the rigs they get at festivals and on big stages. I don't think the PA systems in smaller venues suit the songs. So I'm not one bit pleased to see this downsizing. In case there's any doubt on the matter.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 22:19 Why do you think they've had to reduce the size of the venues they're playing? And how would you suggest they could have avoided this?

No, that's not how it works. You have to make an argument for "if only they'd put out new recordings, which they haven't for 31 years, this wouldn't have happened". You might want to take into consideration all the other classic bands who put out albums of new material and no-one gives a f**k.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 22:19

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 21:59

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

An argument with absolutely zero evidence behind it apart from wishcasting and vibes. Sorry to put it bluntly, but yeah.

Okay, i'm listening. Why do you think they've had to reduce the size of the venues they're playing? And how would you suggest they could have avoided this?

They're one of my favourite bands. I think they're great, and am puzzled that more people don't think that. I think they should be playing to ever larger crowds, not smaller ones. I also think they sound much better when they get to play through the rigs they get at festivals and on big stages. I don't think the PA systems in smaller venues suit the songs. So I'm not one bit pleased to see this downsizing. In case there's any doubt on the matter.

's preference for smaller, more intimate venues is well-documented. Festivals work well to get old material into the ears of new listeners, but large venues are expensive and outdoor performances (Crystal Palace, for example) make it difficult to control the environment (if you've got mad lasers which need 50000 m3 of dry ice to really slap then that doesn't work if the wind carries your smoke away). Technically they're a challenge also - a small room packed with soft warm bodies has different acoustic properties than a beach where most of your sound is only going to benefit the seagulls. Since "getting into your head by any means necessary" is a thing, it's easier to do that when you have a smaller but more densely-packed audience.

Which begs the question why RCMH was ever a consideration. My suspicions are:

• there was a deal with LiveNation, a 2-for-1 thing, where a larger venue is offered with a smaller backup. Touring costs the band, not the label - if the venues are booked on a flat-fee basis, rather than % of gate, then playing to a half-empty house becomes an expensive proposition, especially when neither band has the backing of a label that can supplement the income through record sales

• there's a release in the offing, and the label wanted to see how much they wanted to invest in marketing - if you can fill big venues in target markets then it makes sense to spend money on marketing, otherwise it's a small ad in the back of Exchange & Mart.

Either way, speaking personally the new NYC venue is a better option - the fans get the full-on Sisters Experience (and it is an experience), the band isn't faced with a sea of empty seats, and certain short bald very-definitely-not-goth frontmen who are pushing pension age don't need to strain to fill the space with sonic assault. I'd sooner spend the evening with fewer people, but people for whom the music means something, than in MSG with people for whom it doesn't.

Planet Dave wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 15:02 If Von was that fussed or upset about the potential for downsizing, which has been looking likely for a while, he'd have done something to counter it. He hasn't so presumably he isn't, so I don't see any reason or need for anyone else to be. Anyone doing so is just getting upset over their own expectations, which ought by now to be more effectively managed when it comes to matters Sisterly. You'd have thought.

I'm not going to shed crocodile tears about it, but it does seem weirdly self-destructive to bother writing and performing solid new songs and then not publicizing them, not even putting out a couple damn MP3s, to generate some excitement, especially when booking larger venues. There's being stubborn and then there's just being dumb.

As of now, the MGM Music Hall at Fenway in Boston is going to be very empty for Von and company, so I expect a new, smaller venue will be announced shortly.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

Promoters would have something to push, old fans who'd fallen away would have something to let them re-engage with the band, and new fans would have something they could stream in advance of the shows. We're in a golden age for bands with a legacy - lots of them are making bank again, trading off having back catalogues of hits built at a time when they were given time to develop and mature. That's now extremely difficult for new acts to do.

And again, there's nothing wrong with performing music on your own terms, but there are consequences to making it willfully difficult to share new music.

It's a remarkable tribute to the band that they've been able to sustain a touring career, but this here is where it ends - you can't open up new markets and expand your reach without engaging in the process of promotion. If you don't want to expand your reach, then that's fine. But you can't both have your cake (not release) and eat it (tour new territories to expanding crowds).

Agreed. Very well said.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 22:31 No, that's not how it works. You have to make an argument for "if only they'd put out new recordings, which they haven't for 31 years, this wouldn't have happened". You might want to take into consideration all the other classic bands who put out albums of new material and no-one gives a f**k.

But that's not what I'm actually arguing. Prior to the new songs of the last few years appearing, you'd have been right.

But things DID actually change two years back, and we got all these new songs, and a new sense of momentum. They played the best received tour of the last, what, 15 years? Longer? They went to the States and things started to look a little different. Meanwhile other (admitedly larger and more mainstream) acts in the same wheelhouse wrapped up tours playing to some of the biggest audiences of their careers - The Cure, Depeche Mode etc.

I can see why a promoter took a punt on a US tour for the Sisters. It's wasn't a crazy proposition. The last few gigs in the US did have a buzz about them. But then this new tour didn't 'catch', at least not yet, and they ran out of road from a promotional point of view. Von doesn't like doing interviews etc, and who can blame him? Ben and Kai can go out and do a certain amount of media work, but let's be honest - every media outlet that submits an interview request is disappointed when they're told Andrew won't do it, and they can talk to a guitarist instead.

Promoters won't be happy with that, because they're trying to sell tickets. If they like an act's music, then that's a happy coincidence. And if you're trying to sell tickets and the act you're promoting basically won't give you anything other than the name recognition of the band to work with, that's not ideal.

The Sisters are a fantastic band, but you can't really discover that unless you're standing in the venue. What I'm saying is that they've made it harder than it needed to be by not making it easier for people who like them to share that love.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 22:31

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 22:19 Why do you think they've had to reduce the size of the venues they're playing? And how would you suggest they could have avoided this?

No, that's not how it works. You have to make an argument for "if only they'd put out new recordings, which they haven't for 31 years, this wouldn't have happened". You might want to take into consideration all the other classic bands who put out albums of new material and no-one gives a f**k.

How dare you! Deep Purple is still releasing new albums, and if only I heard it on the radio I change the station. And some other bands you though they're 'dead' still making records.

But I guess some of us want to believe that just because the Sisters would release new recordings, in any format, whatever number of new songs, main media would put this on the front/main page, without massive promotion, so the time of glory would return.

As I mentioned before, the technology caught up with Von and allowed him to "release" music in the form of gazillions of YouTube clips of songs old and new being performed live around the world. He's made it clear, he doesn't see the point in spending a lot of his time and the others' time (esp. when they have other bands), and money which he won't recoup (at least in the immediate near future) when it's just going to be available for free. Of course, we know he CAN, he just doesn't NEED the stress.

The suggestion about a 2-1 LiveNation deal with larger/smaller venue is interesting, it's probably something like that, otherwise RCMH is just a weird choice of venue for them. But the tour goes on, they should definitely pull a good crowd in Brooklyn.

I´m just eternally grateful that other artists do things differently. I mean, Nick Cave COULD have chosen to only perform great songs like Frogs and Final Rescue Attempt live on his current tour, instead he chose to record and release them on the amazing Wild God album. Very grateful for that.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 09:44 So I'm just gonna leave this here: If they'd released the new songs, they wouldn't be downsizing this US tour.

Promoters would have something to push, old fans who'd fallen away would have something to let them re-engage with the band, and new fans would have something they could stream in advance of the shows. We're in a golden age for bands with a legacy - lots of them are making bank again, trading off having back catalogues of hits built at a time when they were given time to develop and mature. That's now extremely difficult for new acts to do.

And again, there's nothing wrong with performing music on your own terms, but there are consequences to making it willfully difficult to share new music.

It's a remarkable tribute to the band that they've been able to sustain a touring career, but this here is where it ends - you can't open up new markets and expand your reach without engaging in the process of promotion. If you don't want to expand your reach, then that's fine. But you can't both have your cake (not release) and eat it (tour new territories to expanding crowds).

Agree with this. They should sort out the website as well - it's dire. Get rid of the tour dates for the last few years or at least put the new ones at the top.

Electrochrome wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:26 As I mentioned before, the technology caught up with Von and allowed him to "release" music in the form of gazillions of YouTube clips of songs old and new being performed live around the world. He's made it clear, he doesn't see the point in spending a lot of his time and the others' time (esp. when they have other bands), and money which he won't recoup (at least in the immediate near future) when it's just going to be available for free. Of course, we know he CAN, he just doesn't NEED the stress.
.

Stress? Putting out of couple of MP3s with "official" versions of rather good songs he's playing all the time in concert, is now considered too stressful for Von?

Nobody is asking him to go into a studio and record a goth version of Physical Graffiti. He could knock this off in his bedroom.

Excuses, excuses when it comes to Mr. Eldritch. So the other guys have "other bands" --- that nobody cares about. I think they could all spend a few hours getting this small endeavor together if Mr. Von deemed it necessary.

All this "stress" on poor Von, when a guy like Wino Weinrich is still travelling the world and putting out music without all the drama involved here. FFS, just how decrepit IS Eldritch, anyway?

Gutterdandi wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 19:45

Electrochrome wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:26 As I mentioned before, the technology caught up with Von and allowed him to "release" music in the form of gazillions of YouTube clips of songs old and new being performed live around the world. He's made it clear, he doesn't see the point in spending a lot of his time and the others' time (esp. when they have other bands), and money which he won't recoup (at least in the immediate near future) when it's just going to be available for free. Of course, we know he CAN, he just doesn't NEED the stress.
.

Stress? Putting out of couple of MP3s with "official" versions of rather good songs he's playing all the time in concert, is now considered too stressful for Von?

Nobody is asking him to go into a studio and record a goth version of Physical Graffiti. He could knock this off in his bedroom.

Excuses, excuses when it comes to Mr. Eldritch. So the other guys have "other bands" --- that nobody cares about. I think they could all spend a few hours getting this small endeavor together if Mr. Von deemed it necessary.

All this "stress" on poor Von, when a guy like Wino Weinrich is still travelling the world and putting out music without all the drama involved here. FFS, just how decrepit IS Eldritch, anyway?

More than that - ”the other guys” WANT nothing more than to record and release these new songs, the songs that they themselves have co-written (okay, Dylan is no longer in the band, but still). They’ve told me as much, I even have it on tape.

Of course, but he always raises that as a reason. It doesn't matter. He doesn't have to do anything for anyone, which at this point in his career and in life, in general, is a pretty good place to be. He's financially well off, he has no boss, he has no pressure, he can make new music at any time, he can cancel Radio City and head out to Crooklyn to a new venue with no problem, he still gets royalties, he's got avocados and fruits you've never heard of falling off trees in his backyard, and he can go out in public without shades and not be recognized.

I still think Von remains the smartest guy in the room.

TheGoodSon wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:51 I´m just eternally grateful that other artists do things differently. I mean, Nick Cave COULD have chosen to only perform great songs like Frogs and Final Rescue Attempt live on his current tour, instead he chose to record and release them on the amazing Wild God album. Very grateful for that.

Seconded. Many other bands have proved that it's possible. It's stubbornness, which is fair enough. No harm done. Just twelve songs which would have been good if there weren't close to a thousand people screaming in the background.

Electrochrome wrote: ↑07 Sep 2024, 00:42 Of course, but he always raises that as a reason. It doesn't matter. He doesn't have to do anything for anyone, which at this point in his career and in life, in general, is a pretty good place to be. He's financially well off, he has no boss, he has no pressure, he can make new music at any time, he can cancel Radio City and head out to Crooklyn to a new venue with no problem, he still gets royalties, he's got avocados and fruits you've never heard of falling off trees in his backyard, and he can go out in public without shades and not be recognized.

I still think Von remains the smartest guy in the room.

Oh yeah, Von is playing 4 dimensional chess, I've been hearing that one for years from certain quarters.

He didn't really want to play Radio City Music Hall anyway, I'm sure. It was all just a little in-joke.

TheGoodSon wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:51 I´m just eternally grateful that other artists do things differently. I mean, Nick Cave COULD have chosen to only perform great songs like Frogs and Final Rescue Attempt live on his current tour, instead he chose to record and release them on the amazing Wild God album. Very grateful for that.

Haven't liked anything Cave has done since Murder Ballads. He badly underestimated how much Blixa, Kid Congo Powers and of course Mick Harvey contributed to the Bad Seeds. But I get your point.

Gutterdandi wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 19:45 Nobody is asking him to go into a studio and record a goth version of Physical Graffiti
.

Freakin’ classic.

The Sisters are still selling out the usual venues in the UK and Europe and I'm sure that brings in a lot of revenue. However it's really unlikely they could sell out arenas and the promoter is doubtless well aware of that and isn't daft enough to try. Releasing any new material is unlikely to change that. For whatever reason the American promoter took a different view and doubled the size of the venue from last year. Why? Who knows but I don't imagine Von had any input. It's worth pointing out that Sisters don't usually play tours in consecutive year's over here.

Gutterdandi wrote: ↑07 Sep 2024, 16:29

TheGoodSon wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:51 I´m just eternally grateful that other artists do things differently. I mean, Nick Cave COULD have chosen to only perform great songs like Frogs and Final Rescue Attempt live on his current tour, instead he chose to record and release them on the amazing Wild God album. Very grateful for that.

Haven't liked anything Cave has done since Murder Ballads. He badly underestimated how much Blixa, Kid Congo Powers and of course Mick Harvey contributed to the Bad Seeds. But I get your point.

I love TBC, but yeah - after that it’s just been the occasional song that’s worked for me rather than full albums.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑08 Sep 2024, 00:09 Who knows but I don't imagine Von had any input. It's worth pointing out that Sisters don't usually play tours in consecutive year's over here.

Of course he didn't. He can't do any wrong can he