Heartland

Yes. That's definitely possible. Maybe Marx's nickname was 'careful'. There's a lot we will probably never know. Fascinating stuff, though. I think we need to pick Sinclair's brain some more.

MrChris wrote:Yes. That's definitely possible. Maybe Marx's nickname was 'careful'. There's a lot we will probably never know. Fascinating stuff, though. I think we need to pick Sinclair's brain some more.

it's been said before

i concurr

http://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 83&start=6

it's like deja vu all over again...

MrChris wrote:it's like deja vu all over again...

that would be deja-deja-vu, then

I knew someone would say that. I was quoting an infamous football presenter. So infamous I forget his name, though...

I remember reading an interview with Marx in a fanzine purchased at the Portsmouth Guildhall gig in 85, where he said that he wrote Stranger as a love song, and Von's lyrics changed the tone completely into 'I want every woman in the world'.
Or something.
I could dig the zine out, but it's packed away pending my imminent move.
I'll see if it's within easy reach...

...Nah, that one'll have to wait.

Ralph

".... This is for the Wakefield branch of the people with funk rock", followed by launching into Walk Away.

Someone told me there is a complete german version of Marian out there...who knows?

And I find a mistake in the german translation..
Ohne deine Hilfe verlier´ ich mich in dieser Welt, not "Ort"..he he..

Amy_Eldritch wrote: And I find a mistake in the german translation..
Ohne deine Hilfe verlier´ ich mich in dieser Welt, not "Ort"..he he..

I thought it was 'in this place' rather than 'in this world'?
Definately sounds like he says diesem Ort.

Ralph

Ralph wrote:

Amy_Eldritch wrote: And I find a mistake in the german translation..
Ohne deine Hilfe verlier´ ich mich in dieser Welt, not "Ort"..he he..

I thought it was 'in this place' rather than 'in this world'?
Definately sounds like he says diesem Ort.

In the only live version I've got it's very probably "Ort", whereas in the studio version - well, hard to say. It even could be "Meer" (as well as "Ort" or "Welt").

*shrug*

I've not enjoyed Marian as much as I used to since I read a review (the link's around here somewhere) in which Steve Sutherland describes the song as 'emotional blackmail'.

I'm reading Fury by Salman Rushdie, and have just come across the following passage:

"Professor Solanka made the mistake of flipping briefly to CNN, where it was all Elian, all the time. Professor Solanka was nauseated by people's eternal need for totems. A little boy had been rescued from a rubber ring in the sea, his mother drowned, and at once the religious hysteria had begun. The dead mother became almost a Marian figure and there were posters reading ELIAN, SAVE US" (my italics).

Assuming Rushdie's not referring to the song Marian, which I doubt, presumably he's referencing whatever inspired Von's lyric. Anyone have a clue what this might be?

"A Marian figure" probably means "a figure resembling Mary" i.e. the Virgin Mary.

markfiend wrote:"A Marian figure" probably means "a figure resembling Mary" i.e. the Virgin Mary.

yep, that is a recognised expression...

also, there's a whole tradition of roman catholic writing called "marian literature" - stories about the virgin mary...

i'm guessing that von got the idea from leonard cohen. or whoever it was in the band that first used the name in a song... potentially mr marx in his "red skies disappear" demo for FALAA? marian the song lifts a few ideas from that track.

Quiff Boy wrote:

markfiend wrote:"A Marian figure" probably means "a figure resembling Mary" i.e. the Virgin Mary.

yep, that is a recognised expression...

also, there's a whole tradition of roman catholic writing called "marian literature" - stories about the virgin mary...

i'm guessing that von got the idea from leonard cohen. or whoever it was in the band that first used the name in a song... potentially mr marx in his "red skies disappear" demo for FALAA? marian the song lifts a few ideas from that track.

So where do the references to drowning fit in then?

Not from the story of Elian Gonzales, which is what Rushdie appears to be referencing... That happened 1999-2000, about 15 years too late to influence the lyrics of "Marian".

i don't know enough laughing lenny to know about every marian in his songs... did any of those drown?

markfiend wrote:Not from the story of Elian Gonzales, which is what Rushdie appears to be referencing... That happened 1999-2000, about 15 years too late to influence the lyrics of "Marian".

That's not what i meant. Rushdie is obviously talking about Elian Gonzales, but the fact that he mentions Marian and drowning made me think that both Rushdie and Von were referencing a common source text, especially as Fury is absolutely packed to the gills with literary and cultural references. Haven't found anything by Googling, so perhaps it's just coincidence...

I'd vote for coincidence.

Marian / Mariana is a bit of a recurrent literary theme, originating in Shakespeare and taken up by Tennyson. As you can see what follows, it's essentially a very mopy poem about a poor deserted bird who is pining like a Norwegian blue :


Mariana is a poem written by Lord Alfred Tennyson in 1830.

"Mariana of the Moated Grange" first appears in Shakespeare's dark comedy Measure for Measure and is the inspiration for the poem. In Shakespeare's work, Mariana waits in a grange for her lover, who has deserted her. At the end of Shakespeare's work, Mariana is re-united with her lover. However, there is no happy ending in Tennyson's work.

Mariana follows a common theme in much of Tennyson's work: that of despondent isolation. The subject of Mariana is a woman who continuously laments her lack of connection with society. The isolation defines her existence, and her longing for a connection leaves her wishing for death at the end of every stanza. In order to properly portray her horrible plight, Tennyson uses strong imagery to express a parallel between the woman's dilapidated environment and her inner mental/social state. Tennyson's greatest strength may possibly be his ability to create scenery and use this scenery to embody a human's emotional state.

Different stanzas in the poem reflect on either day, night, or her life as a whole. The end result is obvious, that in her current state, hours, days, weeks, months all blend into nothing. They merely create a dull smear of despondency that is her life.

All of this, by the way, is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana

OK, then, not coincidence.

Oh, and Begemot sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you didn't know about Elian Gonzales. I was just posting the link for the benefit of lurkers

markfiend wrote:OK, then, not coincidence.

Oh, and Begemot sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you didn't know about Elian Gonzales. I was just posting the link for the benefit of lurkers

No worries. I think you're probably right in any case....

Elldo once said in an interview that the song is very personal to him and that's why he never performs it in Hamburg. Maybe the song is about a girl he knew in Hamburg who drowned?

I thought it was because that girl's boyfriend/husband might be in the crowd.

Dark wrote:I thought it was because that girl's boyfriend/husband might be in the crowd.

That's what I'd heard too.