Heartland

Motz wrote:

Obviousman wrote:Next month I'll have a lovely exam covering all kind of definitions which you don't use anyway, like Taylor series, matrixes, whatever, and some terrible statistics too...

Surely that's an Eldritch series?

Well, I don't think so, but a it's a kind of series of numbers basically, with a terrible definition (and proof), and since I have no plans to go into the deep with my maths (and surely not in English ) I translated it litteraly

Maths rocks


but then i'm a complete loser...with a capital L

Calculus and Statistics

Burn wrote:Maths rocks

... Depends on the world you live in

Where's taylor in this thread?

yeah, i like maths

and i like drugs

paint it black wrote:yeah, i like maths

Now that would be an encouragement

The only encouragement my professor of math does, is (literally) stopping every five seconds to say she cannot work in that noise when everyone is completely silent .... Thus she stops about 55 times every lesson (and a lesson takes two hours), and I try to keep myself busy through counting how many stops she manages to do

ah, but i also like rock n roll





sounds like from the data you have to hand you could really impress by working out the probabilty of the next instant at which she will speak

Chairman Bux wrote:Replacing science, mathematics and other such purely "academic" courses with practical and domestic classes will be the ruination of the nation.

I'm all in favour of high academic standards for those who are that way inclined. I think the dumbing-down you talk of is due to a continued lack of any genuine alternative for the rest. High schools in this country are judged primarily on the number of pupils achieveing 5 or more grade Cs at GCSE level. Luke's school offers an IT GNVQ which is very popular: the kids like it beacause it's primarily course-work based; the school likes it because a pass is equivalent to 4 GCSEs. But it's not what I would call a genuine vocational qualification. It's not going to help them get a job in mainstream IT. Familiarity with the most common PC-based applications is a basic life skill though in this day and age and, therefore, I would argue far more essential than the sort of things they're trying to cram into him on his maths course.

But where are the courses in plumbing, car maintenance, child-care etc? Why is so much of what is taught in our schools of no interest to so many of our children? Surely it makes more sense to allow the less academically gifted to do something which is going to be of more benfit to them and society as a whole than sitting at the back of the class flicking bits of paper at the bright kids? No doubt that's cheaper than training them to fit central heating or build a conservatory and there are fewer health and safety headaches, but in the end everyone loses out.

Francis wrote:Luke's school offers an IT GNVQ which is very popular: the kids like it beacause it's primarily course-work based; the school likes it because a pass is equivalent to 4 GCSEs. But it's not what I would call a genuine vocational qualification. It's not going to help them get a job in mainstream IT. Familiarity with the most common PC-based applications is a basic life skill though in this day and age and, therefore, I would argue far more essential than the sort of things they're trying to cram into him on his maths course.

Not to be a pedant, but teaching them the most common apps will only hinder them and funnel more money into the pockets of those blokes in Redmond. As with all subjects, it's better to teach transferable skills than pigeon-holing everything, which is perhaps why generic subjects such as Maths have more support than supposedly more useful qualifications.

To be honest, I think the school benefits more from it being coursework based, because then it's easier to coach people through the exam. Some of the stuff that I've seen/heard about faculty help as I've undertaken coursework various (I'm in my GCSE year) just beggars belief and completely defeats the object of examining students at all - what's the point in even taking the course if 90% of the population are going to get 90% of the coursework marks (about 20% in an average subject)? All it serves is to bore the hell out of the bright ones who'd rather be learning something new, instead of going through the motions of a project that the teacher has lost all enthusiasm for the 15th time round. Schools are for educating (i.e. Giving students something they can use), not giving parrot-like familiarity with a small field of reference (English literature is the worst offender in this case).

Anyhow, I fully agree with you that there should be an alternative for those who are less academically inclined (for one thing, I'd be on the receiving end of fewer spit-balls ). However, what you risk by introducing such a system is that there is a stigma attached to either one of the paths. Either a student could be seen as "thick" for opting to take purely vocational courses (maybe a mix and match of vocational/academic courses would be a good idea) or some of the less psychologically strong, yet intelligent students, may be put off the academic courses by peer pressure.

I think our education system already brands the less academically gifted as 'thick', which is why they pick on the bright kids. If they were given an opportunity to find something they enjoyed/ excelled at then their feeling of self-worth would surely improve.

Yes, I agree with a mixture of academic/ vocational courses. I wouldn't want to see a return to the old grammar school/ secondary modern system where we were segregated based on an exam taken at 11 years of age with no opportunity to develop later.

I'm actually in one of the few remaining areas of the country where the 11+ exam is still used, though there is an increasing call to get it scrapped. While I passed it comfortably, I still think that it is a flawed system, since I know (personally and know of) many people at comprehensives who would make far better use of the education that some, shall we say "less enthusiastic", students are wasting (in the case though, it seems more of a case of "won't work" than "can't work"). To be honest, I'd love to see an interview-style system trialled whereby the student, their parents and their teacher could sit down and honestly discuss where they saw their education going and which route seemed the most beneficial for the student at that particular moment in time and where they would be given a chance to exhibit their enthusiasm for their preferred direction (because in reality, no approach is going to help them if they're apathetic about it). Obviously there needs to be a cut off point where there student would have to specialise in a particular area (academic or otherwise), but it would be nice if they got a chance to experience the different options before GCSE level or whatever. From watching those around me, it's clear that interests, enthusiasm and indeed the ability to cope with a particular syllabus change throughout the school career so it's naive to think that any system of segregation would suit everyone.

Anyway, I'm just babbling now. I'm at the end of the system so it's not exactly going to do me much good by ranting about it.

Motz wrote:Anyway, I'm just babbling now. I'm at the end of the system so it's not exactly going to do me much good by ranting about it.

You sound very coherent to me. And while you may be at the end of the system in question, you're soon to be at the start of the one which is in a position to change it i.e. the right to vote.

Francis wrote:Twice now Luke's maths teacher has rung to tell me he's only managed a D on his test paper when his target grade's a C. Yeah well, if you'd set his sights a bit higher he might have managed a C or even a B. What earthly use is Pythagorus' theory ever gonna be to him anyway? Why don't we teach them something more useful like raising children/ eating healthily/ fixing leaking taps/ choosing the right mortgage.

It makes me seethe.

I know what you mean. My son Adrian's teacher wanted him to do grade 2 one more year. Me and Sara refused. Now he's very good in grade 3. Doing just fine.

f**k the teachers, except for Ness

Schools are for educating (i.e. Giving students something they can use), not giving parrot-like familiarity with a small field of reference (English literature is the worst offender in this case).

i think more the ideal you aspire to? the reality for all subjects, is, and i think has to be, more propositional and at best (for the brightest) practical learning, but never in my experience, experiential

Yes, I agree with a mixture of academic/ vocational courses. I wouldn't want to see a return to the old grammar school/ secondary modern system where we were segregated based on an exam taken at 11 years of age with no opportunity to develop later.

that might be seen as the new BTec: the old ONC for technicians, C&G for practical bod's, rolled into one meaningful qualification.

you know one thing Francis, i've never met a poor (in wealth) plumber. true, there is still a great deal to be said for the post school apprenticeship route IMHO

paint it black wrote:you know one thing Francis, i've never met a poor (in wealth) plumber. true, there is still a great deal to be said for the post school apprenticeship route IMHO

Yes, but the point I'm obviously failing to make is that post 16 is too late. Look at all the disillusioned 15 year olds hanging around a street corner near you. I'm not advocating sticking 10 year olds up chimneys, but I think we 're trying to give too many of our teenagers more of an 'education' than is good for them.

Sorry Francis, I have to back track here. Any son of yours and Pams who takes Clash boots of me and then lifts the guitar rifts purely from sound. Its ...umm, sound. Nirvana is cool as well. Locked away in his bedroom, But Buxy has a point.

Have a son; be proud. If he makes it ...

Francis wrote: What earthly use is Pythagorus' theory ever gonna be to him anyway?

I thought I would never need any of that c**p, until I joined the Merchant Navy and they went even further, (talk about hell), so be careful sometimes even the worst subjects are needed, oh I failed art and now I'm a graphic designer, just goes to show