Heartland

Posted: **10 Dec 2005, 14:29**

RicheyJames wrote:just a couple of points: firstly, this isn't about getting sainsburys to withdraw jim davidson's dvd from sale. it's about highlighting their hypocrisy in bowing to pressure from the christian right.

In that case, I'll be sending sainsburys an email of complaint.

Posted: **10 Dec 2005, 17:20**

robertzombie wrote:I remember a while back a town near me (the majority of people in it were Indian) banned Christmas decorations outside houses because they said it was against their religion!

Hmm... still, I'd be surprised if the majority of Muslims, Hindus and so on genuinely objected to Christmas celebrations. I've always thought it extremely patronising to do the whole "it's a winter festival" thing.
If I was a member of one of those religions I think I'd be more offended that the society I lived in thought that my "community" were such a bunch of intolerant bastards who couldn't accept the traditions of the country their parents/grandparents had immigrated to. Who begrudged other people their own religious celebrations. I imagine that pisses these groups of a lot more than seeing a tinsel-covered nativity scene set up in the foyer of their local shopping centre.

Posted: **10 Dec 2005, 18:47**

That it's apparently perfectly sensible to rebrand Christmas (in the not-really-thought-through belief that somewhere, someone will be offended by it's imagery), whilst simultaneously pushing out all the stops to convince folk that spending money on non-items is a festive thing to do, has always struck me as somewhat strange. I lost count of the number of "top ten Christmas gift idea" posters I saw today in town.

Of course, it's not really about peace an' goodwill is it. Silly me

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 00:51**

andymackem wrote:Surely Christian Voice et al can't be so stupid as to believe their protests are having any impact in suppressing these events.

How confident are we that CV and chums are genuine protesters, and not part of an on-going post-modern marketing campaign?

Does CV have any kind of recorded history dating beyond the days of this show? Has anyone ever heard of them in any other context?

It's all a bit convenient, no?

You can judge for yourself here: http://www.christianvoice.org.uk

To answer the rest of your questions, they are an established group whose m*****n is campaign for so-called christian values. The "promotion of homosexuality" seems to be their main target and they have actively campaigned against the Civil Partnership and Gender Recognition Acts, thankuflly failing dismally in both cases. They had an account with the Co-operative Bank

who subsequently asked them to close their account with them due to their "discriminatory pronouncements based on the grounds of sexual orientation".

Goups like Christian Voice are becoming more common and it would be foolish to dismiss them as impotent bigmouths. They mean business and if the likes of Sainsburys are prepared to pander to their demands, they should be taken seriously.

So yes, I'll be complaining to Sainsburys as well. If they get an equal amount of complaints about the Jim Davidson DVD, they can't justify not withdrawing it from stock. Maybe we should complain about Freddy Starr while we're at it.

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 00:52**

Andrew S wrote:[they are an established group whose m*****n is campaign for so-called christian values.

Damn that sweary filter.

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 11:00**

sainsbury email wrote:Thank you for your interest in Sainsbury's. We are currently dealing with your request and will get back to you shortly.

Are they really or are they just saying that to try and keep me happy?

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 13:43**

Andrew S wrote:To answer the rest of your questions, they are an established group whose m*****n is campaign for so-called christian values. The "promotion of homosexuality" seems to be their main target and they have actively campaigned against the Civil Partnership and Gender Recognition Acts, thankuflly failing dismally in both cases. They had an account with the Co-operative Bank who subsequently asked them to close their account with them due to their "discriminatory pronouncements based on the grounds of sexual orientation".

I think I just found the most convincing justification for laws against homophobic hate-speech that I am ever likely to see. And I just stopped identifying as Christian

I'll believe in God without associating myself with these types, thanks

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 18:09**

Motz wrote:I think I just found the most convincing justification for laws against homophobic hate-speech that I am ever likely to see. And I just stopped identifying as Christian

I'll believe in God without associating myself with these types, thanks

Well, essentially all you need to identify as Christian is a belief that Jesus was/is the Son Of God. Not identification with any particular Church. Having said that, you'd have to live by some version of the Bible... which could be a real problem for homosexuals and anyone who's ever picked their nose and eaten it for that matter...

Belief in God (in some form or another... immnent, transcendent, multi-faceted, called something else etc.) is a basic tenet of the majority of religions, Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on that one.

Posted: **11 Dec 2005, 19:01**

boudicca wrote:Well, essentially all you need to identify as Christian is a belief that Jesus was/is the Son Of God. Not identification with any particular Church. Having said that, you'd have to live by some version of the Bible... which could be a real problem for homosexuals and anyone who's ever picked their nose and eaten it for that matter...

I do have the belief in Jesus, but I figure that by calling myself Christian, people will assume that I actually subscribe to the writings of Paul (whose opinions the majority of the modern Christian institution is based on) which I have major issues with. Ideally I'd change the opinions of those in the church itself, but as one of the few remaining unbaptised who's actually willing to question the word of the leaders, it might just be received as s**t-stirring

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 10:21**

Andrew S wrote:You can judge for yourself here: http://www.christianvoice.org.uk

To answer the rest of your questions, they are an established group whose m*****n is campaign for so-called christian values. The "promotion of homosexuality" seems to be their main target and they have actively campaigned against the Civil Partnership and Gender Recognition Acts, thankuflly failing dismally in both cases. They had an account with the Co-operative Bank who subsequently asked them to close their account with them due to their "discriminatory pronouncements based on the grounds of sexual orientation".

Goups like Christian Voice are becoming more common and it would be foolish to dismiss them as impotent bigmouths. They mean business and if the likes of Sainsburys are prepared to pander to their demands, they should be taken seriously.

The earliest dated stuff I could find on their web site relates directly to the screening of the JS:TO on the BBC. There's nothing in the 'about us' section to suggest that this is a group dating back even two years, never mind 10, 15 or some time long before Jerry Springer and his opera had ever been thought of.

Nothing on that proves that they could not simply be part of the marketing scheme for a show which, as I've said before, has achieved mainstream success despite being rubbish and best suited to an audience of chin-stroking student pseuds desperately trying to be radical.

After all, there must be some reason why people keep going to watch such a poor show.

/stirs/

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 12:41**

Christian Voice is a real right-wing Christian pressure group. Although I see little of the love, compassion and forgiveness that I thought Christianity was meant to be based on in their web site. Nasty bastards IMO.

Secondly, I got a reply to my e-mail to Sainsbury's:

A Sainsbury Spokesperson wrote:Dear Mark

Thank you for contacting us. I am sorry you have been disappointed by our decision to withdraw Jerry Springer - The Opera from sale in our stores. As there has been lots of interest in this matter I would like to clarify why the title was taken out of our range.

We sell many DVD titles throughout the year and our range changes from week to week based on what customers want and, of course, sales. In the first week that Jerry Springer - The Opera was released, we sold only 111 copies in all stores nationwide and received a high number of contacts from unhappy customers. In the early part of the second week we sold only 21 more copies and received further complaints. Due to these very poor sales figures this DVD would have been withdrawn at the end of the week, but in view of the contacts we had received we removed it a few days earlier than planned.

Please be assured that, as a company, we feel it is our responsibility to offer choice. We do not feel it is right for us to tell our customers what they should or should not buy. However, in this case sales were so low that we did not think removing this title would have a negative impact on our customers and we wanted to give them a choice of more popular titles.

Thank you for taking the time to let us know your views on this matter and for giving us a chance to explain the reasons behind our decision.

Kind regards,

Gavin Wood
Sainsbury's Customer Services

They were going to pull it anyway because of poor sales; when CV intervened they took the action a few days earlier than planned.

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 13:14**

"In the first week that Jerry Springer - The Opera was released, we sold only 111 copies in all stores nationwide and received a high number of contacts from unhappy customers."

i wonder how many copies of jim davidson's dvd they have sold then. cant imagine its much more. and surely the ratio of complaints should be sufficient to enable us to make the same point?

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 14:33**

Aye. I thought it was a bit of a cop-out TBH. Like you say, I can't imagine Jim Davidson selling gazillions.

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 16:10**

I don't like Jim Davidson's attitude at all. Back in the 80s my Dad was policing one of his shows and he ordered all the people in wheelchairs to be removed from the front row. It's not the only time he's done that. I'll willingly send an eMail when I have the time.

Posted: **12 Dec 2005, 17:55**

Motz wrote:
boudicca wrote:Well, essentially all you need to identify as Christian is a belief that Jesus was/is the Son Of God. Not identification with any particular Church. Having said that, you'd have to live by some version of the Bible... which could be a real problem for homosexuals and anyone who's ever picked their nose and eaten it for that matter...
I do have the belief in Jesus, but I figure that by calling myself Christian, people will assume that I actually subscribe to the writings of Paul (whose opinions the majority of the modern Christian institution is based on) which I have major issues with.

Yeah, I'm actually thinking about what I said there... it would be quite reasonable to identify as a Christian without subscribing to the majority of Biblical teachings. I think you'd have to agree with everything that was attributed to Jesus himself, everything that he is said to have spoken. But of course that accounts for a very small proportyion of the Bible, and rarely the controversial bits.

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 09:45**

it seems that mr gavin wood has been a busy chap as he sent me an identical reply to mr fiend's. which puzzled me slightly as i had made no reference to jsto in my original email. i have replied to sainsburys making this clear and asking for clarification on a number of points including the sales figures for the jim davidson dvd and numbers of comlaints logged for each title. i'm still waiting for "gavin" to get back to me...

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 13:34**

RicheyJames wrote:it seems that mr gavin wood has been a busy chap as he sent me an identical reply to mr fiend's. which puzzled me slightly as i had made no reference to jsto in my original email. i have replied to sainsburys making this clear and asking for clarification on a number of points including the sales figures for the jim davidson dvd and numbers of comlaints logged for each title. i'm still waiting for "gavin" to get back to me...

Never trust a man called Gavin...

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 15:07**

I've contacted them and await a reply very soon. This should be interesting.

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 17:34**

Driven wrote:This should be interesting.

I very much doubt it.

Dear Josh

Thank you for your letter. I have noted that you would like to see us stop selling the DVD "Jim Davidson Full On Live".

I want to assure you that we are not unsympathetic to your concerns. We are often asked to boycott products for a variety of moral or political reasons.

As a company, we feel it is our responsibility to offer choice to our customers. I fully appreciate your strong feelings on this issue, but we do not feel that it is right for us to tell our customers what they should or should not buy. We feel they are best able to make up their own minds, and indeed should have the right to do so.

What I can say is that all our buyers monitor the sales of the products we sell very closely. If customer demand declines on any product for any reason, they would carefully review the product in question, and decide whether to discontinue it due to lack of popularity.

Kind regards

Mark Reed
Sainsbury's Customer Services

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 17:41**

well done on not receiving the standard "gavin wood" reply! i do hope you're going to reply to "mark reed" enquiring as to why they've removed your right to make up your own mind about jsto.

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 17:44**

if that's the case, mr reed, why have JS bowed to the christian voice idiots?

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 17:52**

I've sent an email asking both questions.

Posted: **13 Dec 2005, 17:54**

It does start to smell increasingly of "We did pull JS-TO because we're running scared of right-wing Christians but we'll be fÃ¼cked if we admit it to you liberal types."

Heartland

jerry springer the opera vs the christian right