Heartland

iesus wrote:"2 5 0 0 0"

lyric is one of the best

Yes, very good. Good work, Andrew... It is as brilliant as "yeah yeah yeah yeah you could be the one"

gallup wrote:

playboy wrote:I give you right concerning the name.
What I meant was that I find it somewhat sad to keep the name after the band is gone and all members (except the singer) are gone.

fields of the nephilim anybody? i think von (as well as mccoy) made the bands what they are and when somebody thinks about the sisters of mercy he is hardly thinking about wayne or gary (and to be perfectly clear i like their "succesor" bands very much and the bands of wright brothers too). on the other hand, wayne and co. are the ones of those who actually achieved SOMETHING after the farewell with the alpha brain (in comparisson with rubicon, last rites, ghost dance, fools dance, presence, levinhurst...and many more)

fields of the nephilim anybody? no, I didn´t think so.....

playboy wrote: I give you right concerning the name.
What I meant was that I find it somewhat sad to keep the name after the band is gone and all members (except the singer) are gone. The band was not put on hold, I still have cuttings about the split. The band was over, according to Andrew.
Nevertheless, it was a completely new band that did Vision Thing. New members, rather new sound. But in order to sell record and/or maybe for contractual reasons they were called The Sisters Of Mercy. Also the more or less solorecord Floodland was labelled as The Sisters Of Mercy.
I don´t know if you remember what made Sisters as popular as they became. It was the sound, the special way the guitars were played, one guitarist often played very clever melodies all over the songs, the sound of the guitars and bass became a trademark and you could hear a song instrumental and you knew it was the Sisters.
It was very influental on many bands that followed

Today that sound is gone, the trademark guitars are gone, the bass is gone (!), the melodies are gone.
Songs like Crash And Burn may be a good song, but very very few, most likely none, would guess that it was the Sisters, hearing it instrumental.
The sound is hardly new and the songs hardly as classical (if they were, there would be a lot of big record companies that would give Andrew the amount of money he craves for).

I completely understand your point of view (even if I wasn't there to see the 80's Sisters). The band doesn't have that vibrant jangle sound of the FALAA lineup today, and Eldritch's voice is a raspy whisper rather than the powerful bellowing of the 80's. But a lot of us love it that way. Shimmering industrial groove machine, etc.

Funny, though; apparently when they were trying Ben Christo out for the Sisters, they had him play the new songs and didn't tell him what the name of the band was. He figured out during the audition that it was the Sisters because the new tunes were "stylistically" so similar to the old ones he had listened to when he was younger. Go figure, huh?

One more thing... which of the lyrics on Gift kicks?

Giving Ground and Rain From Heaven are wonderful - classic Eldritch writing in how they make a general point through the details of a specific event (the falling apart of the band) although given their sparse writing style I guess they are more open than other Sisters songs to the listener inserting his own ideas. Rain From Heaven is simple by itself, but it ties into and begins the giant "destruction of civilization/sex and other raptures/the band breaking up" Flood metaphor he developed on the next album, and the futility depicted in Giving Ground is then likewise a political and a general observation rather than simply about Hussey. I think the lyrics express these ideas powerfully and in beautiful language, though I don't know what to make of Colours.

centurionofprix wrote: .....
is then likewise a political and a general observation rather than simply about Hussey...

well said...
The H*** guy would love to be all this concept for him, but it is not and that is the truth.
was writing about politics and the fall and decline of the western civilization . [punkt]

centurionofprix wrote:

playboy wrote: I give you right concerning the name.
What I meant was that I find it somewhat sad to keep the name after the band is gone and all members (except the singer) are gone. The band was not put on hold, I still have cuttings about the split. The band was over, according to Andrew.
Nevertheless, it was a completely new band that did Vision Thing. New members, rather new sound. But in order to sell record and/or maybe for contractual reasons they were called The Sisters Of Mercy. Also the more or less solorecord Floodland was labelled as The Sisters Of Mercy.
I don´t know if you remember what made Sisters as popular as they became. It was the sound, the special way the guitars were played, one guitarist often played very clever melodies all over the songs, the sound of the guitars and bass became a trademark and you could hear a song instrumental and you knew it was the Sisters.
It was very influental on many bands that followed

Today that sound is gone, the trademark guitars are gone, the bass is gone (!), the melodies are gone.
Songs like Crash And Burn may be a good song, but very very few, most likely none, would guess that it was the Sisters, hearing it instrumental.
The sound is hardly new and the songs hardly as classical (if they were, there would be a lot of big record companies that would give Andrew the amount of money he craves for).

I completely understand your point of view (even if I wasn't there to see the 80's Sisters). The band doesn't have that vibrant jangle sound of the FALAA lineup today, and Eldritch's voice is a raspy whisper rather than the powerful bellowing of the 80's. But a lot of us love it that way. Shimmering industrial groove machine, etc.


Funny, though; apparently when they were trying Ben Christo out for the Sisters, they had him play the new songs and didn't tell him what the name of the band was. He figured out during the audition that it was the Sisters because the new tunes were "stylistically" so similar to the old ones he had listened to when he was younger. Go figure, huh?

One more thing... which of the lyrics on Gift kicks?

Giving Ground and Rain From Heaven are wonderful - classic Eldritch writing in how they make a general point through the details of a specific event (the falling apart of the band) although given their sparse writing style I guess they are more open than other Sisters songs to the listener inserting his own ideas. Rain From Heaven is simple by itself, but it ties into and begins the giant "destruction of civilization/sex and other raptures/the band breaking up" Flood metaphor he developed on the next album, and the futility depicted in Giving Ground is then likewise a political and a general observation rather than simply about Hussey. I think the lyrics express these ideas powerfully and in beautiful language, though I don't know what to make of Colours.

I also like Andrew today and the "industrial groove machine". Maybe not as much as the "poweful speed machine" like Andrews old band. But that is not the point, it is just personal music taste.
But no matter the name of the band, it was another band. With a trademark sound, powerful songs, powerful vocals, the guitarmelodies.
Even most of the classical songs played live today has lost their original touch that made them so special, like the intro to FALAA (even if the original riff is now being played a little later in the song) and the classic opening riff to Temple Of Love, which they now chose to play the second half of the extended mix. Half Detonation Boulevard. Half Burn. Strange chorus on Anaconda. Half More. etc. There is little left of the original Sisters Of Mercy.
It would be better to seperate those two from each other to mark that is a completey new band with a completely new sound.

For me The Sisters Of Mercy was very damaged the way Gary Marx left the band. When Craig Adams was gone so was The Sisters Of Mercy. They were that important to the band and the sound and energy. Of course Andrew knows this but money talk louder.


Oh, yeah, Giving ground and Rain From Heaven have good lyrics. But I don´t like the rest...

Well, playboy ... show me ONE band that changed their name with their sound? When Craig left, that was surely a loss. But when other members decided to leave, because they wanted to make their own, different thing - I don't see why one should change the name of one's band then. There is no reason for that, especially when one wants to go on.

Of course, you say it - it was all about the trademark, those leaving members had loved to take with them or have it just disappear - for their own obvious reasons. So what?

In addition, bands change their sounds, change their members. They are human beings, they develop. And I, for one, do like Vision Thing. For me it is as Sisters as the Reptile House EP - only on a different level of development, arrived in the 21rst century. And perfectly implemented. ...

If with that viewpoint and the accordingly applied sounding, the bandname "The Sisters of Mercy" should have been abandoned, because it is were no longer true, then I see no reason for any Goth bands like m*****n to exist at all ... because we're in 2011 and not in the 19th century. And this idea is just wrong, because the ever same s**t is still going on.

von and the mechanics

Being645 wrote:Well, playboy ... show me ONE band that changed their name with their sound? When Craig left, that was surely a loss. But when other members decided to leave, because they wanted to make their own, different thing - I don't see why one should change the name of one's band then. There is no reason for that, especially when one wants to go on.

Of course, you say it - it was all about the trademark, those leaving members had loved to take with them or have it just disappear - for their own obvious reasons. So what?

In addition, bands change their sounds, change their members. They are human beings, they develop. And I, for one, do like Vision Thing. For me it is as Sisters as the Reptile House EP - only on a different level of development, arrived in the 21rst century. And perfectly implemented. ...

If with that viewpoint and the accordingly applied sounding, the bandname "The Sisters of Mercy" should have been abandoned, because it is were no longer true, then I see no reason for any Goth bands like m*****n to exist at all ... because we're in 2011 and not in the 19th century. And this idea is just wrong, because the ever same s**t is still going on.

i have to agree

and people think the sisters are bad for this? all i'll say is:

Looking back on the band's output, it's fair to say that they've gone through many stylistic changes over the years. The twiddly melodies of FALAA are light years away from the mutated dub/funk/metal they were peddling around 81-ish; there's a definite change of sound (that's in many ways more radical than the change from FALAA to Floodland and onwards to today's sound) that didn't necessitate a change of name. Reptile House stands almost on it's own, sounding like nothing else in their back catalog, despite many of it's tracks going back to a year or two before it was released.

The argument is bunk in other words. It doesn't hold water.

Oh, and wot Quiffy said.

I agree with mh in every respect. 's voice is the constant in a sea of change but it what defines the Sisters. Hence the slight change of name for the stuff with James ray (and others) on vocals. And The Reptile House sounds as incredible today as it did in spring 1983.

Time to move away from the obsession with the short-lived jingly-jangly phase methinks ...

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:I agree with mh in every respect. 's voice is the constant in a sea of change but it what defines the Sisters. Hence the slight change of name for the stuff with James ray (and others) on vocals. And The Reptile House sounds as incredible today as it did in spring 1983.

Time to move away from the obsession with the short-lived jingly-jangly phase methinks ...

Agreed but, as a point of order, we all know that wasn't the reason for the "slight change of name for the stuff with James ray (and others) on vocals". That was definitely about Wayne.

stufarq wrote:

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:I agree with mh in every respect. 's voice is the constant in a sea of change but it what defines the Sisters. Hence the slight change of name for the stuff with James ray (and others) on vocals. And The Reptile House sounds as incredible today as it did in spring 1983.

Time to move away from the obsession with the short-lived jingly-jangly phase methinks ...

Agreed but, as a point of order, we all know that wasn't the reason for the "slight change of name for the stuff with James ray (and others) on vocals". That was definitely about Wayne.

i think it was more about protecting the brand than about getting back at wayne, tbh. that was just an added bonus.

i'm sure he'd have done something similar if gary (for example) had starting trying to use a variant of the sisters' name/brand.

and especially in wayne's case, he had only been in the band for about 18 months before the split, hence andrew feeling slightly peeved at him trying to leech off their established identity.

Being645 wrote:Well, playboy ... show me ONE band that changed their name with their sound? When Craig left, that was surely a loss. But when other members decided to leave, because they wanted to make their own, different thing - I don't see why one should change the name of one's band then. There is no reason for that, especially when one wants to go on.

Of course, you say it - it was all about the trademark, those leaving members had loved to take with them or have it just disappear - for their own obvious reasons. So what?

In addition, bands change their sounds, change their members. They are human beings, they develop. And I, for one, do like Vision Thing. For me it is as Sisters as the Reptile House EP - only on a different level of development, arrived in the 21rst century. And perfectly implemented. ...

If with that viewpoint and the accordingly applied sounding, the bandname "The Sisters of Mercy" should have been abandoned, because it is were no longer true, then I see no reason for any Goth bands like m*****n to exist at all ... because we're in 2011 and not in the 19th century. And this idea is just wrong, because the ever same s**t is still going on.

Chris Cornell was the singer in Soundgarden. He later teamed up with new musicians, took the name Audioslave.
You see the question is when a band cease to exist. What makes a band? If you think that Andrew alone was making Sisters then fine. But the truth is different. Just as it would be wrong if The Edge, Larry Mullen and Adam Clayton left U2 and yet Bono continued as U2. It is a band, not a company. Or would that be U2 to you??
Rolling Stones with only Jagger?
Smaller bands with no importance may work that way, but band with selfrespect only loose their credibility acting like this. Thin Lizzy comes to mind.

I think Gary Marx and Craig Adams were important and together with Andrew they were The Sisters Of Mercy.

lachert wrote:von and the mechanics

That would be cooler. It represents the sound of Andrew and todays member more.

Quiff Boy wrote:

Being645 wrote:Well, playboy ... show me ONE band that changed their name with their sound? When Craig left, that was surely a loss. But when other members decided to leave, because they wanted to make their own, different thing - I don't see why one should change the name of one's band then. There is no reason for that, especially when one wants to go on.

Of course, you say it - it was all about the trademark, those leaving members had loved to take with them or have it just disappear - for their own obvious reasons. So what?

In addition, bands change their sounds, change their members. They are human beings, they develop. And I, for one, do like Vision Thing. For me it is as Sisters as the Reptile House EP - only on a different level of development, arrived in the 21rst century. And perfectly implemented. ...

If with that viewpoint and the accordingly applied sounding, the bandname "The Sisters of Mercy" should have been abandoned, because it is were no longer true, then I see no reason for any Goth bands like m*****n to exist at all ... because we're in 2011 and not in the 19th century. And this idea is just wrong, because the ever same s**t is still going on.

i have to agree

and people think the sisters are bad for this? all i'll say is:

At least three of four the members in todays Cure played with The Cure as early as 1979.

playboy wrote:At least three of four the members in todays Cure played with The Cure as early as 1979.

yeah, but they've come and gone... and come again.

at one point it was just bob & lol. and their sound has changed dramatically through the years, regardless of the lineup.

playboy wrote:I think Gary Marx and Craig Adams were important and together with Andrew they were The Sisters Of Mercy.

I wouldn't disagree about the importance of Gary and Craig but let's look at things in a little more detail.

Craig left of his own volition. He had left the band once before, and he's walked out on almost every single band he's been in since. This guy has a nasty habit of walking out on bands. Signature bass sound or not, vital to the Sisters or not, Craig must been seen in hindsight as being vaguely dispensable. I know that sounds horrible, I know it downplays the importance of his contribution, but it's the truth. This is a guy who walks out on bands.

The Gary situation is a little more complex. By all accounts he was ready to leave the band in late 83, by late 84 there was allegedly talk of recruiting Simon Hinkler as a replacement, his own hindsight opinion is that the band had peaked in 81/82 and everything else was downhill. His role in the band must be viewed as being compromised by 83 (witness his disgust at how Anaconda turned out and his negligible contribution between the writing of Heartland - datable to late 82-ish - and side 2 of FALAA).

If a band member stops contributing, if a band member stops being a working living part of the band, should they still be considered as a vital part of the band?

My opinion is that the Sisters today are most definitely not the same Sisters as existed in 81, but they're still the Sisters. That's good enough. (And let's not forget how crucial Chris 'n' Ben are to today's band either )

mh wrote:

playboy wrote:I think Gary Marx and Craig Adams were important and together with Andrew they were The Sisters Of Mercy.

I wouldn't disagree about the importance of Gary and Craig but let's look at things in a little more detail.

Craig left of his own volition. He had left the band once before, and he's walked out on almost every single band he's been in since. This guy has a nasty habit of walking out on bands. Signature bass sound or not, vital to the Sisters or not, Craig must been seen in hindsight as being vaguely dispensable. I know that sounds horrible, I know it downplays the importance of his contribution, but it's the truth. This is a guy who walks out on bands.

The Gary situation is a little more complex. By all accounts he was ready to leave the band in late 83, by late 84 there was allegedly talk of recruiting Simon Hinkler as a replacement, his own hindsight opinion is that the band had peaked in 81/82 and everything else was downhill. His role in the band must be viewed as being compromised by 83 (witness his disgust at how Anaconda turned out and his negligible contribution between the writing of Heartland - datable to late 82-ish - and side 2 of FALAA).

If a band member stops contributing, if a band member stops being a working living part of the band, should they still be considered as a vital part of the band?

My opinion is that the Sisters today are most definitely not the same Sisters as existed in 81, but they're still the Sisters. That's good enough. (And let's not forget how crucial Chris 'n' Ben are to today's band either )

This is by far the best I have read in this matter. Constructual for once. I agree totally. I give you right. I guess I look at it different than most younger fans, cause I grew up with them when they made records and so on and kind of saw the development.

When they made their "comeback" in 1990/1991 and toured I saw them a lot and it was fun and they were very good. But something was wrong, I couldn´t put my finger on waht it was. Something has changed since I saw them in 1985. The music was there, he sang good, the have releases two albums since last time. It was an aura that was gone. Very very hard to explain.

Anyway, they released Vision Thing and it was a new sound. NEW sound. They took a leap forward. Since then it kind of stood still for a few years, the compilations album came out, it felt right, time to look back, enjoing the past and looking forward to their next step. Which never came.
I guess that is why I find it hard to relate to the name with this lineup. Or the one before that. Or the one before that. Or the one before that....

The last 15 years they have going down the stairs instead of up. The sound today sounds like the did five years ago. It certainly isn´t a fresh sound. Like a weird "tribute" band with the original singer. They always used to look ahead, ignoring the past and was trying to make each tour different. Nowadays I cannot tell from looking at a setlist if the show is from 2006 or 2011 (maybe Arms would reveal it....) but I am afraid that next years tour will include Anaconda, Flood II, Temple Of Love (the second half of the extended mix) at the end, before that one instrumental song, Crash And Burn, Summer, Arms, First And Last And Always.
And so on.
Kind of sad and repetiting.
Nice that they threw in No Time To Cry and A Rock And A Hard Place recently though. Hope they will not play them to death as well...

Better to write more new songs and maybe do something fresh for once and play Nine While Nine, Possession, Gimme Shelter, Heartland, Lights, Valentine or whatever.
Man , they could be really really good live.

mh wrote:If a band member stops contributing...

So can we get a new Eldritch please, one that releases records?

I'm amazed this has run to 13 pages.

I like both bands, listen to both bands every week, was at Brixton on Saturday for The Mish and will be at the Round House for the Sisters.

Who gives a f**k about what happened 25 years ago between two big egos in a small time indie band from Leeds (light fuse, retreat 10 paces)

Personally I don't play anything Eldritch has released since 1985 and the last three times I've seen them live were a joke, but I'll still give the man my cash in November as he was one of my teenage hero's growing up in the early 80's when every one else I knew like Duran Duran.

jparton wrote:I'm amazed this has run to 13 pages.

I like both bands, listen to both bands every week, was at Brixton on Saturday for The Mish and will be at the Round House for the Sisters.

Who gives a f**k about what happened 25 years ago between two big egos in a small time indie band from Leeds (light fuse, retreat 10 paces)

Personally I don't play anything Eldritch has released since 1985 and the last three times I've seen them live were a joke, but I'll still give the man my cash in November as he was one of my teenage hero's growing up in the early 80's when every one else I knew like Duran Duran.

I´m with you on this one! I like Sisters, I like Mish (live more than Sisters, I sadly must say, at least since 1993). I would love to attend the Brixton Mish show, I hope it was good! I will also see Sisters next month, but, unfortunately I have no expectations. This will be the last time I will see Sisters, unless they come really near where i live or unless they surprise me and kick ass in November. But I doubt, last time I enjoyed them was in Madrid eleven years ago.

jparton wrote:Who gives a f**k about what happened 25 years ago between two big egos in a small time indie band from Leeds (light fuse, retreat 10 paces)

Well Wayne couldn't resist having a pop at the Sisters on Saturday night. I went to Brixton to see a couple of good bands I was very much into 20 years ago. And I left feeling I'd just been to see a bitter old git

I do wonder how much of that is Wayne playing up to what he thinks his audience expects, though?

Maybe Wayne is brighter than I give him credit for.
On Saturday night, after the crowd had witnessed two brands of ersatz Sisters, WH was hardly going to play them the real thing in his DJ set - imagine the queue for gig ticket refunds ...

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:Maybe Wayne is brighter than I give him credit for.
On Saturday night, after the crowd had witnessed two brands of ersatz Sisters, WH was hardly going to play them the real thing in his DJ set - imagine the queue for gig ticket refunds ...

I don´t understand......