Heartland

My £0.02:

Technically, recording live shows may or may not be illegal. I would say you're almost certainly in breach of the terms and conditions of entry on the back of the ticket; (see above: "someone records a show, risks getting booted out, risks their recording equipment being confiscated")

But you said:

Badlander wrote:I really can't see how you can stop anybody from sharing something you shouldn't have in the first place.

Given that a search for "Badlander" in the weeding forum brings up 12 threads with your name in them, you're hardly in a position to be making such a judgement, yes?

We're all aware of the possible legal issues surrounding live recordings; we're still trading, weeding, sharing anyway. And I for one am glad that people like mrgreen are willing to take the risks and record the shows and share their recordings. It's not very polite to call someone a crook to their face, is it?

And given that people "close to the band" are aware of the existence of this site, and almost certainly aware of what goes on in the weeding section, I think we can safely assume that we have in some sense tacit approval (or at least not an outright "cease and desist") for it from the band. I may be totally out of whack with this judgement, but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

And like mh says,

mh wrote:That gap is gonna be filled, and it's miles better that it be filled by a genuine fan who wants to do good stuff for other genuine fans than it be filled by some dodgy front for an arms/drug dealer.

Would you rather get your Sisters live recordings for free through weeding and online sharing, or by paying through the nose to some geezer on a market stall?

markfiend wrote: But you said:

Badlander wrote:I really can't see how you can stop anybody from sharing something you shouldn't have in the first place.

Given that a search for "Badlander" in the weeding forum brings up 12 threads with your name in them, you're hardly in a position to be making such a judgement, yes?

I'm a man of contradiction and I know that. Bootlegging is illegal, I know it is and I think it sucks. (it being illegal, not bootlegging, thank God)

Badlander wrote:I'm a man of contradiction and I know that. Bootlegging is illegal, I know it is and I think it sucks. (it being illegal, not bootlegging, thank God)

You're a man of bad information. Bootlegging is not illegal, or it would be illegal even when bands like Metallica allow people to tape their shows. Some bands or venues will not allow recording and/or photographic equipment at concerts, but, then again, smoking is also banned in some places without it being illegal. Selling the recordings, however, is illegal, and some bands will object to recordings of their shows being traded as well.

mugabe wrote:Bootlegging is not illegal, or it would be illegal even when bands like Metallica allow people to tape their shows.

A band can allow you to do something illegal. If they don't sue you, it's their choice, but it's still illegal. It's like if your car gets stolen, you may or may not go to the police. But theft is still against the law.
(I'm not comparing bootlegging to thievery.)

Selling the recordings, however, is illegal, and some bands will object to recordings of their shows being traded as well.

Distributing copyrighted material is illegal in every circumstance, whether you sell it or not. All the more so as it's not just the band's problem, but also the record company's. Some heavily bootlegged artists (The Cure, Bruce Springsteen...) don't mind about bootlegging as long as it's a fan thing. Record companies, on the other hand, have a tendency to regard it as less profit, hence oppose it in any case.

I'm still not convinced. Copyright exists in recording, not performances. Another example: if a sneak a camera inside a venue, against the explicit rules, and take a few snaps, I will be the copyright holder of these. Is this illegal? Is taping shows off the radio illegal? Is it illegal to record myself playing "Alice" shoddily on the banjo?

Argh... I'd appreciate some legal help on that matter. I find it very interesting and I'm not sure I understand everything...

mugabe wrote:I'm still not convinced. Copyright exists in recording, not performances.

I'm pretty sure copyright protects recorded as well as live stuff. The loophole you're refering to was precisely the reason why so many bootleg companies were allowed to blossom in the late 80s-early 90s : you didn't have the right to sneak a recording device into a venue, but then if you succeeded and recorded the show, then the recorded version was yours, and in some cases you could even sell it and make profit out of it (again, Italy, Belgium...).

Another example: if a sneak a camera inside a venue, against the explicit rules, and take a few snaps, I will be the copyright holder of these. Is this illegal?

To a certain extent only. Right to image : you can't make money out of it. Just like you can't take a picture of some unknown dude in the street, sell it and make money out of it. The person whose picture is taken is eligible to a part of the profit and can very legally refuse to be photographed.

Is taping shows off the radio illegal?

There's a de facto tolerance : AFAIK it is considered private copy. But there's no way you can distribute it.

Is it illegal to record myself playing "Alice" shoddily on the banjo?

Certainly not, but then if you distribute it (maybe even for free ?), it is considered a cover and then you have to pay royalties to the author / rights owner.

I'd just like to point out that this is the finest concert recording I have ever heard. I would guess that mr.green put some real work into cleaning it up.

Thanks so much.



Tony

mrgreen does quality work

Indeed.

Thank you all for your kind replies

James Blast wrote:mrgreen does quality work

Gotta agree! Sterling work Sir!

Badlander wrote:I'm pretty sure copyright protects recorded as well as live stuff. The loophole you're refering to was precisely the reason why so many bootleg companies were allowed to blossom in the late 80s-early 90s : you didn't have the right to sneak a recording device into a venue, but then if you succeeded and recorded the show, then the recorded version was yours, and in some cases you could even sell it and make profit out of it (again, Italy, Belgium...).

I don't break the law if I sneak a recording device into a venue. However, I'm sure releasing bootlegs infringes on the exclusive rights of the performer to release albums under their name.

Badlander wrote:

Another example: if a sneak a camera inside a venue, against the explicit rules, and take a few snaps, I will be the copyright holder of these. Is this illegal?

To a certain extent only. Right to image : you can't make money out of it. Just like you can't take a picture of some unknown dude in the street, sell it and make money out of it. The person whose picture is taken is eligible to a part of the profit and can very legally refuse to be photographed.

That's the end of paparazzis, then.

Badlander wrote:

Is taping shows off the radio illegal?

There's a de facto tolerance : AFAIK it is considered private copy. But there's no way you can distribute it.

No, because you would breach the copyright that exists in the recording - not the performance/band/songs.

Badlander wrote:

Is it illegal to record myself playing "Alice" shoddily on the banjo?

Certainly not, but then if you distribute it (maybe even for free ?), it is considered a cover and then you have to pay royalties to the author / rights owner.

You seem to assume that there is some kind of blanket royalty to be paid in case of recording. If I record a banjo-"Alice" and put it on a single B-side, get no airplay and sell no copies, how much do I owe?

mugabe wrote:That's the end of paparazzis, then.

Some of them do get sued.

If I record a banjo-"Alice" and put it on a single B-side, get no airplay and sell no copies, how much do I owe?

A portion of the money you didn't get, I guess.

As you can see, I'm unable to answer all the points you raise.

markfiend wrote:
And given that people "close to the band" are aware of the existence of this site, and almost certainly aware of what goes on in the weeding section, I think we can safely assume that we have in some sense tacit approval (or at least not an outright "cease and desist") for it from the band. I may be totally out of whack with this judgement, but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

I totally agree. I think everyone in here has bought all possible albums, t-shirts, concert tickets, etc...they could find. We are more than willing to pay for anything they bring out, so i see the bootlegs that we share as something of a compensation for the real fans...And given the fact that the quality of bootlegs varies greatly and that we're even happy to get the chance to listen to even the most s**t quality recordings further proves my point that these recordings are only out there (and allowed in some way by SOM) for the real fans...

Btw, mrgreen: the recording you made is top notch...this one will be my in car stereo for months to come...thanks a lot

It is indeed a fantastic recording

Thanks mrgreen

umm, have i missed something or was there ever a flac version of this on DaD?

ver interested to hear this recording, if its as good as people say

elguiri wrote:http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=95850

thank ye kindly

mugabe wrote:I'm still not convinced. Copyright exists in recording, not performances. Another example: if a sneak a camera inside a venue, against the explicit rules, and take a few snaps, I will be the copyright holder of these. Is this illegal? Is taping shows off the radio illegal? Is it illegal to record myself playing "Alice" shoddily on the banjo?

Let's look at this separately. Be aware that I only speak out of the laws here in Belgium, but I'm pretty sure they are the going rules for the whole of the EU.

- Sneaking in a camera: it is allowed if not explicitly stated otherwise on the tickets. If you get one in and the security says they are not allowed, it has to be on the tickets. Otherwise they cannot forbid them. Most of the time it is a venue policy, but it can be altered in collaboration with specific bands (eg Metallica allows bootlegging and have explicit agreements with the venues).
BUT when you film this, you do NOT have the rights on the movie. Not the music, and not the video material with the band recorded. They are the intellectual rights of the band. You can become the owner of the video material (and get the right on them) when you make an official agreement contract) with the band or spokesperson of the band.

-taping shows off the radio is as illegal as taping a movie on the telly onto a video. It is not But you can do this for personal use only. You cannot copy it, broadcast it for a group etc... (you know all that s**t when you take a commercial videotape/dvd and read what's in it. 'Personal use' means you can watch it in a family setup. This also includes watching it while you invite a couple of friends for a fun night. It does NOT mean you can organise a movie evening, place a big screen there with a projector and invite 40 friends to come and watch. It is a very thin line, I know. When in doubt, always ask an official represetative of your local author's rights company.

-you playing and recording Alice on the banjo would not be illegal, only immoral and a curse onto mankind. The same goes here as for taping radio shows. You can record it, you can have someone listen to it, but when you play it at a party just for fun, it is against copyrights law and thus you have to pay author's rights to play it. At that moment, it is a cover version of a commercial product, played at an event. The it all depends on whether or not this is a private or a public party, if you ask an entry fee or not etc...

Hope I shed some light on these dubious copyright laws

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote: Hope I shed some light on these dubious copyright laws

You sure did.

@ IZ and

so no hope for mp3 / rapid/ of this show ?
3 weeks for poland gig

Andy Gom wrote:so no hope for mp3 / rapid/ of this show ?
3 weeks for poland gig

It's already available as a FLAC file from DaD and as a weed. The MP3 version may or may not have been withdrawn in order to prevent the spread of lossy versions.

Andy Gom wrote:

Why the long face ? That should be a ! There is a weed, just go and ask for a copy !
Maybe you don't know what weeding is ? Then clicky.