Heartland

Whether CRASS were or were not punk is debatable("we're Crass not Clash"),but the medium they used to express themselves was PUNK,the fans were punks,the music was punk,most of the activists were punks.
My own personal involment with Class war was on a small scale but I was involved and I was a punk as were the majority of everyone else involved.Maybe we weren't the Carnaby street cartoon punks(Takes more than a crazy colour mohawk and bondage trousers to be a punk) but we were punks.

I think your trying to separate inspiration from influence is a ridiculous argument.Hadn't Devoto and Shelley seen the Pistols and put on the Manchester gig would the Buzzcocks(or Magazine or Joy division) ever been formed?I think not.How much more influencial can you be than to inspire someone to form their own band?Likewise The Banshees and Gen X-all Pistols fans that formed bands.

Personally I don't consider "Never mind the bollocks" to be the best album of the punk era(The scream,Real life and Rattus norvegicus are all more complete) but it was the originator,the inspiration and most influencial album of my generation.

I may well be slightly biased as my whole life since I first heard "Holidays in the sun" in 1977 has been inspired and influenced by punk and most of the music I listen to has a direct lineage back to the Pistols(Including TSOL).Although I now dress as to what most people consider trad goth,I still and always will consider myself as A PUNK!


Regarding Grunge and in particular Nirvana,I really don't give a f**k.Cobain wrote some half decent tunes but personally I thought Mudhoney were the better band.My opinions apart,Nirvana's impact(Or at least Nevermind) was immense and kicked retro-rock & glam-metal into touch as The Pistols did to over indulgent pomp rock and prog 14 years previous .Something all us old punks will be eternally grateful for(Not so sure I'm that grateful for kicking out Goth though as well).

You want an American Sex Pistols?Guns and roses were NOT it for sure.And looking at any type of rock band is barking up the wrong tree totally.There was an American Sex pistols in the late 80's and like it or hate it, it was Public enemy.

I'm not getting involved as my arguements aren't as well thought out as yours (read: typed up) and I inevitably end up saying - Bunch of Arse!

Undertow mentioned SAHB on another thread, and I would consider Alex Harvey as probably a more likely role model for the emerging British (read: English) Punk Rocker.
But he's never mentioned in any... well anything. The man had that air of violence and benevolence about him. I remember seeing SAHB on the same bill as The (once mighty) Who at Celtic Park, summer 75, and the day belonged to him.
But they were yet another band like The Six Patels who wrote some killer songs but never released a killer album.
And while I'm on about The (once mighty) Who, they were a real kick up the arse! What a back catalogue.

But there ye go, I went off on one incoherent rant, I'm much better in a pub situation after a few lagers, honest.

Bunch of Arse!

Senor Blast wrote

I would consider Alex Harvey as probably a more likely role model for the emerging British (read: English) Punk Rocker.

I would agree , 30 years on from viewing him on TV , he still sits very solid in my mind. I think I was afraid and compelled at the same time as an impressionable 11 year old.
The contrast between Harvey and Zal Cleminson was always a bit unsettling, like having Harvey Keitel and The Joker on stage together, think that might have given me a few bad dreams.
Blimey, just worked out that if he hadn't keeled over in a ferry terminal he'd have been about 70 this year. Wasn't it his brother who got electrocuted in Stone the Crows?, another band who I keep meaning to listen to and never have.
Was it Kinning / Kenning Park in Glasgow he was born , is it still there?
Sorry getting a touch of stream of conciuosness here ?
Thinking about it , it was quite dangerous being in a band in the 1970's Gary Thain got electrouted as well, which I don't think helped his general health.
Then there's always the great story , don't know whether it was true about the singer / guitarist from Touch swallowing a bee at the first Monsters of Rock.
Curtis Mayfield being taken out by his lighting rig

I suppose that's one thing to thank the curse of Health and Safety for


Yes AH another person I was gutted about hearing die , if I remember it was the late great Tommy Vance who brought the News on the Friday Rock Show.
Under my bed clothes I heard
Next then it was back to business with Run To The Hills a new release........might have been A Girlschool session that night. or then again a repeat of the Damned Black Album one, bizzarely ........scuse me need to avoid the wave of nostalgia................................

Wild Bill wrote

Personally I don't consider "Never mind the bollocks" to be the best album of the punk era(The scream,Real life and Rattus norvegicus are all more complete)

Well we agree on that ! In fact Blyth Power are probably my favourite consistent punk band. But then again what is punk?

By the way I wasn't lumping you in with the 10p brigade, I was just trying to illustrate a point

Class War , although not agreeing with all their actions, one good thing was that they showed the SWP 'leaders' up for what they were /are a bunch of self righteous, bandwagon jumping, cowards. I 've lost track of the number of times in the 80's I saw them stir it up then be convienently at the back when it all kicked off, Leaving the 'troops' to take the kicking whilst they wrote up their propaganda for their next campaign.

If CW had actually managed to get organised on a national basis, that would have been interesting, although I suppose it sort of goes against the whole ethos.

Screaming Trees were always my favourite grunge, but I suppose they were really just rawk.............


I doubt we are really going to agree here, but what I 'm trying to put across, very badly it seems.

Is whilst I agree it's a bit dodgy , I do think there is a very thin separation between inspiration and influence. I don't think many people (in the original wave) were influenced by the Pistols, but a lot were inspired.
But because ultimately punk is associated with the Pistols, everyone else gets a bit of a raw deal.

I rarely play Never Mind... , but I still play Moving Targets, Machine Gun Etiquette, Germ Free Adolescence, Crossing the Red Sea... . stuff by Gen X , Scream , Join Hands, Chelsea , Subs , Revillos / Rezillos
Even though I was around at the time and it was very exciting going into WH Smith in the Jubilee week and seeing a blank space on the instore chart where the Pistols should have been; I appreciated them ( I suppose that about sums it up!) but was never moved, by them , I was inspired by all the others.

Actaully thinking about it all through that era at school the vinyl swapping favourites consisted of Damned Damned Damned , Rattus, Parrallel Lines , Talking Heads 77, Roxy Music Live , and erm ..Out of The Blue , and Signing Off

It got a bit worse in the sixth form, battle lines were drawn with the Genesis / Floyd brigade who were legion ..........
I still cannot get to grips with Genesis.... except 'Jesus he loves me and he knows I'm right'

Sorry Mr B

Anyway, I digress


When the the second wave and all your Chron Gen , GBH , Abrasive Wheels, the Punk Pantomine of ANL (good for a laugh but that was about it), came along, they all just seemed to think that leather (bristles) and studs and liking the Pistols was what it was all about.

So the Pistols have an iconic status they don't totally deserve, peopel think Stiff Vicious is cool and no one else gets the proper credit they are due.
At least bands like The Defects had something concrete to rail about and Action Pact , Au Pairs, were different and had something to say.
Charge were another interesting band.

It's just that, to me, all the bands inspired by the Pistols had something to say, were different, exciting.

All the bands influenced by them ended up being indenti kit copies (as they saw it) with not much to say , but probably made more money because the kids bought into the whole fashion, style mags , this is 'rebellious punk' features.

And stopped thinking for themselves......

Anyway , I'm quite enjoying getting the vinyl out while typing this.. I'm on abit of Penetration Lovers of Outrage now!

Cheers

Funny I just thought that I never see Blood and Roses mentioned on 'Goth' sites , but perhaps I don't frequent the right sites. they were a bit scary............but I did see them at Slough tech.

are you pished?

Actually , not tonight, I've had one can of Tangle foot , so my cheeks are glowing somewhat , but at present apart from some cheap Asbourne fizzy water from Netto's (theres's a good one ( in an old cinema) just around the corner from Leppings Lane, they were selling mini cement mixers in there a couple of months ago) it's a cup of coffee!

drink more alcohol, then

no, you can't win

JB wrote

drink more alcohol, then

Ohhhh the voices in my head Inow there is one left in the Fridge, are you Jimminey Cricket ?
Oh go on jes the one then I''ll go to bed!

I definately wasn't one of the 10p brigade undertow.
We used to charge the stupid American tourists in Stratford-on-avon £5 to take our photos,We had to get our snakebite money from somewhere

Wild Bill wrote:

We used to charge the stupid American tourists in Stratford-on-avon £5 to take our photos,We had to get our snakebite money from somewhere

Very commendable interpretation of the 'special relationship'.