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Posted: 24 Mar 2003, 09:16
by The Green Lantern
RicheyJames wrote:The Green Lantern wrote:I'm neither. The war's there. It has started. I hope it's short and sweet and that it doesn't effect the world economy
god yeah - woe betide an illegal and immoral war slows down the tide of multinational capitalism
I said I hope it won't effect it "too much", since it then would effect a lot of other things. And I don't think world economy alone translates to multinational capitalism, since world economy also dictates the state of things in Russia, Burkina Faso and Kuala Lumpur. It's not like it'll only effect the stock trade and the yuppies on Wall Street, who can handle it.
But hey, next time you ask for an opinion, I'll keep my mouth shut.
Posted: 24 Mar 2003, 14:13
by cyn
[quote="The Green Lantern"
There a bar in San Francisco called The Blue Lamp any relation?
Posted: 24 Mar 2003, 16:06
by The Green Lantern
cyn wrote:[quote="The Green Lantern"
There a bar in San Francisco called The Blue Lamp any relation?
None that I know of. Maybe we're semi-cousins or something. Have you been there? A blues joint, right?
Posted: 26 Mar 2003, 00:24
by RicheyJames
The Green Lantern wrote:RicheyJames wrote:
god yeah - woe betide an illegal and immoral war slows down the tide of multinational capitalism
I said I hope it won't effect it "too much", since it then would effect a lot of other things. And I don't think world economy alone translates to multinational capitalism, since world economy also dictates the state of things in Russia, Burkina Faso and Kuala Lumpur. It's not like it'll only effect the stock trade and the yuppies on Wall Street, who can handle it.
hmmm... i'm no economist but last time i checked russia had pretty much thrown it's lot in with the capitalists.
burkina faso on the other hand - nice use of a little-known country btw - is a nice example of a country where most industry is still state-controlled although since around 90% of the population is employed in mainly subsitence agriculture i'm not too sure that fluctuations in the world economy are going to have a huge impact.
and kuala lumpur is the capital of malaysia, which is part of that whole pacific rim boom/bust powered by...capitalism.
i'm well aware that the world economy means much more than wall street and other stock markets. however, surely the very term "world economy" is indicative of a beast which is multinational (the bushes don't actually rule the world...yet) and since an overwhelming proportion of the world's wealth is priavtely owned i think it's disingenous to claim that the world economy is anything other than a capitalist based model.
The Green Lantern wrote:But hey, next time you ask for an opinion, I'll keep my mouth shut.
well... if you can't stand the heat
Posted: 26 Mar 2003, 08:56
by The Green Lantern
RicheyJames wrote:i think it's disingenous to claim that the world economy is anything other than a capitalist based model.
Yes, okay, but please try to forget capitalism for a second. Call it what you want, whatever it is it will also effect Iraq too. My point is that if world economy, or let's just call it Al, if Al crumbles it will effect everyone, you and me and Saddams future grandsons, not just the goverment of various capitalist countries. It will not only effect the price of cough medicine, it will also effect the price of the glass in the bottle, the paper pulp for the label, the spare parts for the truck that is driving it to the Iraqi, or Malaysian, pharmaceut, the underpaid dock worker that is loading and unloading it of a freight carrier. See? Al is everywhere.
I can take the heat, I just can't take anyone disagreeing with me
Posted: 26 Mar 2003, 09:28
by RicheyJames
The Green Lantern wrote:
Yes, okay, but please try to forget capitalism for a second. Call it what you want, whatever it is it will also effect Iraq too.
i think the thousands of tons of high explosive that the "coalition" are indiscriminately dropping all over iraq - sorry i meant to say precisely targetting on command and control structures - are more of a worry right now for the people there than some possible economic crash.
The Green Lantern wrote:My point is that if world economy, or let's just call it Al, if Al crumbles it will effect everyone, you and me and Saddams future grandsons, not just the goverment of various capitalist countries. It will not only effect the price of cough medicine, it will also effect the price of the glass in the bottle, the paper pulp for the label, the spare parts for the truck that is driving it to the Iraqi, or Malaysian, pharmaceut, the underpaid dock worker that is loading and unloading it of a freight carrier. See? Al is everywhere.
thanks for the juniour high economics lesson
obviously changes in local, regional, national and global economies have implications for all of us to some degree dependant on the nature of the change and our individual exposure to it. if the entire global economy were to "crumble" (to use your overly melodramatic turn of phrase) we would all definitely be in a big heap of trouble and i think we'd have more to worry about than the price of cough medicine let alone the individual costs making up that final price.
having said that, i still don't see how a (relatively) small, (relatively) contained war in iraq is going to cause the collapse of capitalism and a new depression. if anything the us economy may see an upsurge post-conflict as us companies have already signed-up to billions of dollars worth of contracts to rebuild the country we're currently bombing back to the stone age...
The Green Lantern wrote:
I can take the heat, I just can't take anyone disagreeing with me
if you think this is bad just wait unitli start agreeing with you
Posted: 26 Mar 2003, 10:30
by Zuma
having said that, i still don't see how a (relatively) small, (relatively) contained war in iraq is going to cause the collapse of capitalism and a new depression. if anything the us economy may see an upsurge post-conflict as us companies have already signed-up to billions of dollars worth of contracts to rebuild the country we're currently bombing back to the stone age...
I do know what you mean...however our little software company is currently £70,000 down thanks to this nonsense...12 peoples wages hang in the balance.....and all their familys etc...pretty easy to be flippant when you are a multi million pound politician....
Posted: 26 Mar 2003, 11:58
by The Green Lantern
RicheyJames wrote:having said that, i still don't see how a (relatively) small, (relatively) contained war in iraq is going to cause the collapse of capitalism and a new depression.
Sorry for being speech-y and not even very good at it. My original point was simply that I hope that the above doesn't happen. That's all.
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 05:59
by zigeunerweisen
I'm all for killing all the capitalist pigs fron this earth, i do truly hate them all, and i'm not even a left winger, but the truth is, i need to eat and for that i need money. Apparently the "shock and awe" thing isn't going so great and fast after all, and world economy keeps on getting worse, or maybe thats just here in portugal, perhaps.
I say end the war and start rebuilding Iraq quicly, i just might get a job in one of those american/english companies, lifting bricks. I need a new pair of pants damn it.
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 06:15
by zigeunerweisen
I saw a dubya speech today, for some armed forces or whatever they were and you know what? I'm starting to get really frightned by all this mess. The guy says a couple of idiotic phrases and the crowd claps, cheers, screams.
"and we'll liberate Iraq..." OoooOOOhh aaHAAAAAhhh EehhheEEE
"and we'll make the world a safer place for everyone..." AAAAAaAAaaaaA UUUUuuuuuuh....
"we'll bomb who the f**k we want and do whatever f**k we want, 'cause we're americans, we don't need anyone, we have more guns and we're blessed and chosen by god... god bless america..." AAAAAAAAAHHHHEEEEEEEHHHEEHHE
I even read things from americans in some websites like, "freedom of speech's great, but now is not the time to disagre with our president" and "you shouldn't allow people to come out and say things against your government". What the f**k??? Are all these people for real? They are allowing their government to take their most basic rights in the name of something like patriotism? Don't any of these people see exacerbated patriotism is just the simplest and most primary way of controling the masses?
Is good to like your country and history and culture and people, it's not good to idolize it and consider yourselves god's gift to humanity. All what i thought were clichés, americans are actually turning into reality.
All these brainwashed, idiotic masses in the US are really starting to frighten me. All this resembles a dictatorship too much. This is not about Iraq any more, is about good ol' uncle sam doing whatever crap they feel like in the world. I'm getting scared and depressed about the prospect of a third global war before i die because of american stupidity/arrogance. It's not enough to leech on the rest of the world, you need to control the god damn place too?
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 09:03
by hallucienate
finally a story worth reporting:
www.iol.co.za
Dozens of US troops injured in friendly fire
March 27 2003 at 09:27AM
Near Nasiriyah, Iraq - Dozens of United States marines were injured when their forces fired on one another in a friendly fire clash around the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah, a correspondent with the troops reported on Thursday.
He said the command post headquarters was apparently hit with shell and mortar fire leaving 37 wounded, including three in critical and two in serious condition, according to officers.
The journalist saw at least six vehicles destroyed in the compound, including three truck transporters, two Humvee all-terrain vehicles and one truck-mounted crane.
Officers said the headquarters compound returned fire but casualty reports from the other side were not immediately available.
A US Central Command spokesperson in Qatar said he had not see any reports about the clash.
- Sapa-AFP
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 13:35
by paint it black
hallucienate wrote:finally a story worth reporting:
www.iol.co.za
Dozens of US troops injured in friendly fire
March 27 2003 at 09:27AM
Near Nasiriyah, Iraq - Dozens of United States marines were injured when their forces fired on one another in a friendly fire clash around the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah, a correspondent with the troops reported on Thursday.
He said the command post headquarters was apparently hit with shell and mortar fire leaving 37 wounded, including three in critical and two in serious condition, according to officers.
The journalist saw at least six vehicles destroyed in the compound, including three truck transporters, two Humvee all-terrain vehicles and one truck-mounted crane.
Officers said the headquarters compound returned fire but casualty reports from the other side were not immediately available.
A US Central Command spokesperson in Qatar said he had not see any reports about the clash.
- Sapa-AFP
Is this true? It sounds like one of my all time favourite films/books
They haven't been giving the troops "the ladder" again have they
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 13:43
by paint it black
The Green Lantern wrote:RicheyJames wrote:having said that, i still don't see how a (relatively) small, (relatively) contained war in iraq is going to cause the collapse of capitalism and a new depression.
Sorry for being speech-y and not even very good at it. My original point was simply that I hope that the above doesn't happen. That's all.
i spent far too long studying this crap
try this link if you can be bothered
http://csf.colorado.edu/authors/Alexand ... gwave.html
Posted: 27 Mar 2003, 14:11
by Ed Rhombus
zigeunerweisen wrote:I'm all for killing all the capitalist pigs fron this earth, i do truly hate them all, and i'm not even a left winger, but the truth is, i need to eat and for that i need money.
Killing everyone because you need money?
This differs from your definition of capitalism how?
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 06:46
by dead stars
Ed Rhombus wrote:zigeunerweisen wrote:I'm all for killing all the capitalist pigs fron this earth, i do truly hate them all, and i'm not even a left winger, but the truth is, i need to eat and for that i need money.
Killing everyone because you need money?
This differs from your definition of capitalism how?
I don't think that's what he meant. Although he might sound a bit confused. I didn't get it either.
But I'm pretty pissed with the war myself and sometimes when I'm really mad and I feel like "I hate Americans" I remember I know Americans (like in here!!!) and Americans aren't all like that - although the great majority... God save me from American liberation PLEASE!
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 06:54
by dead stars
Speaking about liberation, we've all seen how pleased and thankful the Iraquis are, all running towards the American soldiers and kissing them in the mouth (if there's food in it).
Like Mário Soares said, this war is a big cradle of terrorists.
Don't be surprised if one of these kids - now children - is the next to pilot a plane against the Pentagon (let's hope it's only the Pentagon!...).
Then don't come saying "oh lord, why us, what have we done, blah, blah, blah..."
And let's hope it's not the Big Ben, the Parliament, Buckingham Palace...
That's too close for my likings. You rip what you sow.
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 12:03
by Ed Rhombus
Right ho
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 12:21
by Black Shuck
dead inside wrote:
Like Mário Soares said, this war is a big cradle of terrorists.
Don't be surprised if one of these kids - now children - is the next to pilot a plane against the Pentagon (let's hope it's only the Pentagon!...).
Then don't come saying "oh lord, why us, what have we done, blah, blah, blah..."
And let's hope it's not the Big Ben, the Parliament, Buckingham Palace...
That's too close for my likings. You rip what you sow.
Not taking action in Iraq because we're scared of possible terrorist ramifications is, in my opinion, a very cowardly attitude. If we're all s**t-scared of future terrorist atrocities, surely it means Bin Laden and his buddies have won?
and anyway, nobody knows what terrorist ramifications this war will have- Getting rid of Saddam will not necessarily cause terrorists to 'multiply tenfold', as people seem to assume - that is just anti-war propaganda designed to scare people into opposing the war.
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 12:40
by Master Margarita
There are no easy answers in war, and everyone has to make their own decisions as to what they believe right and wrong. Often, there is no objective right or wrong, and, as such, everyone's opinions on this thread are equally valid and right. Consider, then, the following. You are the President of the U.S.A. and you've just learned that there is an asteroid headed for France that will wipe out their entire country. It is scheduled to hit about 2.30 a.m. in just two days time from now. You have enough ships and military personnel nearby to evacuate them safely, but they are on stand-by in case of war with Iraq
Your question: do you set the VCR to record the asteroid hitting France, or do you stay up to watch it live?
See what I mean? There are no easy answers.
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 15:26
by hallucienate
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 16:47
by Quiff Boy
interesting the way different things are reported around the globe isn't it?
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 16:59
by RicheyJames
ooh look syndication
ultimately though 'tis merely a reminder of the old adage about the first casualty of war...
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 18:20
by hallucienate
Quiff Boy wrote:interesting the way different things are reported around the globe isn't it?
my point exactly
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 18:25
by Quiff Boy
the Al-Jazeera network dont pull their punches do they?!!?!
and its interesting that they will discuss this is south africa yet glossover it in the uk (and i assume the u.s.)
Posted: 28 Mar 2003, 18:31
by hallucienate
Quiff Boy wrote:the Al-Jazeera network dont pull their punches do they?!!?!
and its interesting that they will discuss this is south africa yet glossover it in the uk (and i assume the u.s.)
My government is very much anti this war, and although I think the ANC is full of crap I totally support this view. Our national broadcaster is thinking of canning our CNN footage and going with Al-Jazeera for dead-time broadcasts.
That said our reporters are no better than the scum you find elsewhere in the world.
Gotta go, Drews on.