Heartland

About the oil question : Georgia doesn't have oil, but it does control a pipe line running from the Caspian Sea (no relation to Narnia) through the country to Turkey and from there on to Europe, competition that Russia dislikes, which is already proven by the fact the pipe line has been bombed in a strategic air strike. This war,like any war, is nothing else but a human tragedy, no matter how you look at it....

i had to mention about that, but forgot

msm67 wrote:Well, I would have to disagree with Stalin. The death of any innocent is always a tragedy, be it 1 or 1 million. However, the death of a million pedophiles would be cause for a celebration. Just my opinion, not trying to offend anyone!

Paedophiles and child abusers are not the same thing.

To conflate them is slanderous.

It's just Russia vs. America by proxy. Russia has a piqued ego and uses nationalism and delusional dreams of greatness to control its population, and America wants to encircle it with military bases and expand its dominion across the whole Caucasus. The Georgian president is an idiot if he thinks he can play in between those two battering rams.

we used to call it "cold war"

Ahráyeph wrote:About the oil question : Georgia doesn't have oil, but it does control a pipe line running from the Caspian Sea (no relation to Narnia) through the country to Turkey and from there on to Europe, competition that Russia dislikes, which is already proven by the fact the pipe line has been bombed in a strategic air strike. This war,like any war, is nothing else but a human tragedy, no matter how you look at it....

Incorrect infromation. The pipeline in question (Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline) hasn't been hit by the Russians at all.

The International Herlad Tribune says

Russian airstrikes were also reported in two other Georgian cities, Tsenaki and Poti. Poti, on the Black Sea, is an export point for oil from the Caspian region. George Arveladze, an adviser to Georgia's president, said initial reports indicated that the oil terminal had not been struck.

It has, however, recently (Aug 8th) been bombed in Turkey by the PKK.

Clicky

A superb article on the current situation and How We Got Here, can be found here, from a very reputable and reliable source.

Oh, and if anyone is under the illusion that American foreign policy is "isolationist", think again. It hasn't been since the end of WW2.

The wars in Asia to stop "The Red Tide": Korea (with the help of the British and ending in a stalemate) and Vietnam (initially with Australian support, ending in a loss).

The overthrow of Iranian president Mosedegh, to be replaced by the Shah.

US military bases planet wide.

Active support of various dictators, particularly in South America. Mind you, Thatcher seemed to have a thing for Pinochet too.

CIA sponsorship of the Rose Revolution in Georgia, and the Orange Revolution in The Ukraine.

Continued support for Israel since it's creation in 1947.

CIA sponsored attempted coup against Hugo Chavez.

Bay of Pigs, failed invasion of Cuba, April 1961.

Support for the mujahide'en against USSR, Afghanistan.

And that's just the list off the top of my head. Do a little bit of research (steering clear of anything that looks like a conspiracy site) and I'm sure you'll find more.

One thing I'd like to make clear though: There are no "Good Guys" when it comes to geopolitics and The Great Game. All sides are as bad as each other.

It always amazes me that, no matter how many times it's proven that co-operation achieves far more than conflict, some pinhead, easily capable of being out-smarted by yeast, will always choose conflict.

@ Motz...to me, one is just as bad as they other. However, when you put them in the same category, they'll both get upset. Go figure! I take it that is what you meant by the slanderous comment?

@Syberberg...as someone stuck on this side of the pond, I have this comment on US foreign policy: the government should mind its own damn business and clean up the filth in their own backyard! As far as people working together in a proactive way to resolve conflict, that is the ideal way. Unfortunately, there is always some money hungry a**wipe who thrives on making more and innocent lives be damned. I think Guns n Roses said it pretty well in the song "Civil War".

msm67 wrote:@Syberberg...as someone stuck on this side of the pond, I have this comment on US foreign policy: the government should mind its own damn business and clean up the filth in their own backyard! As far as people working together in a proactive way to resolve conflict, that is the ideal way. Unfortunately, there is always some money hungry a**wipe who thrives on making more and innocent lives be damned. I think Guns n Roses said it pretty well in the song "Civil War".

Agreed completely and it'd be nice if the British government did exactly the same. For some reason, once a country reaches a certain level of power, it just can't help itself. Just look at all the Imperial powers since Babylon and the Assyrians, through Carthage, Greece and Rome, to Spain, to Britain, China and then Russia, now the USA. Regardless of the separate ideologies of each one, they have all behaved in a very similar (and rather depressing) manner.

<wry chuckle> I'll stop there before I get far too nihilistic for my own good.

Meanwhile ... 72 Hours later

F*ck, Russia is pushing it with a land grab like this.

@Syberberg....what band did that song "History Never Repeats"? Obviously they never studied history or they would've scrapped that title. It's depressing to think that after thousands of years, the same mistakes are still being made.

Another oil-mafioso conquering sources of money.

spot778 wrote:Meanwhile ... 72 Hours later

F*ck, Russia is pushing it with a land grab like this.

Gori is being used as the staging post for the Georgian forces (such as they are), which makes any military base there a legitimate target for air attack at the very least.

Russia is in the process of actively teaching Saakashvilli a lesson he needs to learn. He's not as important as he thinks he is to the West, particularly the USA and never start anything you can't finish. He's a glorified pawn and completely out of his depth. Right about now he's probably praying that a stray bomb will hit the BTC pipeline in just the right place, ie where the US military is guarding it. Which is unlikely as the pipeline runs south of Tblisi and is buried for most of its length, the only serious above ground targets are the pumping stations. It was deliberately routed to avoid any areas of conflict, including completely by-passing Armenia (they're still technically at war with Azerbaijan...over disputed ethnic regions in Armenia. Sound familiar?) and Kurdish areas of Turkey (separatist movements are 2-a-penny in Asia Minor, or so it seems and, depending upon who they are and where they are depends upon who exactly is financing them).

Saakashvilli doubtlessly is a very disputable person.
His dimness to think that the russians would pass a chance to demonstrate their powers is outstanding. Or did he really think the USA would join a military conflict against Russia?
-Not even Dubya is that mad.

But:

Russia apparently wants to protect the Ossetians right down at the turkish border, as they apparently started invading georgian territory. That has nothing to do with protection anymore.
What Ossetians are there to be protected in Abchasia?
This is a war that's very much to Putin's liking. It destabilizes the non-Gasprom controlled gas and oil traffic in Asia.
The fact that former german chancelor Gerhard Schröder is a head of that very company and we are at the mercy of that Mafia makes me throw up.

it was clear before, but i/we have no doubt about the real reason of this war:

1) punish for Saakashvili for his foreign politic, not-that-what-Russia-may-like,
2) taking control - by changing regime, and it's underline condition for starting negotiations - under gas pipe-line
3) demonstration that Russia is still, or rather again, big player in world politic

so~called protection is bluff, of course Georgia made a great mistake to went there, but for god sake, Russia were adding their troops there.

markfiend wrote:OT but wasn't Stalin Georgian? Josef Djugashvili or something?

Wiki has it: Iosef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili

Apparently that's where it's all started. He made those two provinces Georgian as he's from around there. Allegedly of course...

Even though they don't have oil there, I think there's plenty of other natural wealth stuck under the feet of the people living in those two provinces?

Think it's quite tragic things like these still happen in countries we consider civilised. Of course, not a clue who's right here, because after all in a war nobody is right. On the other hand Russians have dropped bombs near Tbilisi? Fishy...

It's all quite obvious all Russia is interested in is to stay in charge in that specific area, I think...

(sorry for these random thoughts with no structure whatsoever)

msm67 wrote:@ Motz...to me, one is just as bad as they other. However, when you put them in the same category, they'll both get upset. Go figure! I take it that is what you meant by the slanderous comment?

No, I meant that it was slanderous, because the assumption that a paedophile is a child abuser is baseless.

There is absolutely no basis for conflating the two which doesn't include a tacit validation of the idea of "thought crime".

msm67 wrote:@Syberberg....what band did that song "History Never Repeats"? Obviously they never studied history or they would've scrapped that title. It's depressing to think that after thousands of years, the same mistakes are still being made.

I'm not Sy, but:

1. Split Enz

b. Those mistakes will always be made as long as humans inhabit the planet, methinks. How unfortunate, innit.

Obviousman wrote:Think it's quite tragic things like these still happen in countries we consider civilised.

Define "civiliz(s)ed"..?

SINsister wrote:

Obviousman wrote:Think it's quite tragic things like these still happen in countries we consider civilised.

Define "civiliz(s)ed"..?

That's the hard one

Deodorized Armpits?

Power politics on the part of Russia. No, I don't think it's right to characterize Georgia's President as a dimwit at all. Let's say this was happening in Canada. Quebec wants to be independent, so the USA gives out passports to the citizens of Montreal. Just based on this the USA moves "peace keeping forces" into Quebec, which is still technically Canadian land. If Canada declares martial law in one of it's provinces, say Quebec, is that any business of the USA? Just because they gave away freebie passports to some people there as justification for encroaching on their sovereignty because these are now "dual USA/Canadian citizens"?

Then this would seem ridiculous to all if the USA attacked Canada over Quebec. Why is it that Georgia seems to have this coming in some people's views on this thread? South Ossetia is still within Georgia. If the EU had any backbone or NATO gave a damn they would have accepted Georgia to begin with. Unfortunately the EU and NATO know that Putin holds the Oil and Gas cards over all your heads and spending an entire decade not arming yourselves in any substantial way and allowing the Americans to defend places like Kosovo for you has lead to your utter inability to do a thing about Russia. What's Brussels going to do if Russia moves into Azeribaijan and takes over the Baku oil reserves? Put on another Sisters concert I suppose. I doubt We will do anything either, although I find it troubling for the USA either way, especially if Russia's next move is taking Moldova, Ukraine or Azeribaijan.

Obviously cowardice is aplenty over on your side of the pond.

At least Kouchner is trying to do something, along with those fine Finnish people. They are currently trying to get Russia to sign the cease fire while the Brits sit back and grumble.

On the other hand it seems apparent that there may be elements within the Sisters camp itself that have been waiting for a resurgent Russia for quite some time.

Prescott wrote:Power politics on the part of Russia. No, I don't think it's right to characterize Georgia's President as a dimwit at all. Let's say this was happening in Canada. Quebec wants to be independent, so the USA gives out passports to the citizens of Montreal. Just based on this the USA moves "peace keeping forces" into Quebec, which is still technically Canadian land. If Canada declares martial law in one of it's provinces, say Quebec, is that any business of the USA? Just because they gave away freebie passports to some people there as justification for encroaching on their sovereignty because these are now "dual USA/Canadian citizens"?

Nicely put.

@ Prescott: Learn about the Kossovo conflict. Then see just how wrong you are..

Oh goodie, another global issue we can use to make under-educated jibes at the USA for.

Lawyers, police and the USA; everybody hates 'em until you need 'em.

Enjoying the intelligent posts though...