Heartland

Yggdrasil wrote: The people that are in real trouble these days are the clueless record company marionettes who can't write their own material and can't perform live...

What? How the hell are those the people in trouble? I doubt very much that Girls Aloud are at home this evening worrying about the gas bill and sniffing the milk. I imagine most 'record company marionettes' are happy as piggin' Larry on their nasty little newbuild Dubai estates.... What the Sam Hell that has to do with the Sissies ever getting a new 12" out is a frank mystery.

At least the Marionettes got a mention I suppose....Sean....Sean....Come back...all is forgiven....

nodubmanshouts wrote:

Susanne, Summer, War on drugs, Crash & burn

All crap... IMHO

It's he who says it...
You're not one of those cynical fellows, who spend their time trying to convince people that the Sissies have done nothing of any value in the last 25 years, and yet still call themselves Sisters fans, are you ?

RobF wrote:I doubt very much that Girls Aloud are at home this evening worrying about the gas bill and sniffing the milk.

Maybe, but they're going to Hell, while Uncle Eldo, thanks to all his good deeds and general good mood, will spend eternity smoking cheeba, drinking the strongest possible scotches and lounging right next to the lesbian cloud.

Yggdrasil wrote:
The fact that the record business has been transformed is an advantage to the band, not the other way around. They can (could have?) make records at a much lower cost, and most importantly, they wouldn't have to give 98% of what they earned to a record company, they could keep most of the money themselves and hence wouldn't have to sell as many copies to get the same net result.

I am in fundamental agreement with you on this, and have made the same argument in the past. They could turn a bigger profit releasing independently. Of course, Von may not realize that, or may not want to do it himself. Someone (close to the band or close to someone close to the band, if I remember correctly), in another thread, commented that Von is surprisingly uncomfortable with modern musical technology (I think the subject was the archaic nature of the Doktor), which would certainly be an obstacle for the DIY route. Even though the technology is there for a professional-grade recording to be made with a much smaller investment, if he's not comfortable with it, it won't happen. Another possibility is ego: He's been on the charts, he's done the rock star thing, etc. He may feel it isn't worth it if it's not going to be done on the same level he got accustomed to in the 80's/90's. There are any number of reasons he might not do it. I honestly hadn't thought about contractual obligations, but it makes sense: maybe his hands are still tied. If that were the case, and I were in his shoes, I doubt I would want to admit it publicly (especially if I had a long-cultivated image as 'the man with the plan' who always thinks 12 moves ahead of his opponents). I might well play it up as a case of stubbornness on my part...

sultan2075 wrote:Someone (close to the band or close to someone close to the band, if I remember correctly), in another thread, commented that Von is surprisingly uncomfortable with modern musical technology (I think the subject was the archaic nature of the Doktor), which would certainly be an obstacle for the DIY route.

IIRC Quiffy said so on a number of occasions.

Badlander wrote:

RobF wrote:I doubt very much that Girls Aloud are at home this evening worrying about the gas bill and sniffing the milk.

Maybe, but they're going to Hell

If Nicola's going to hell then I'm buying my ticket right now.

RobF wrote:

Yggdrasil wrote: The people that are in real trouble these days are the clueless record company marionettes who can't write their own material and can't perform live...

What? How the hell are those the people in trouble? I doubt very much that Girls Aloud are at home this evening worrying about the gas bill and sniffing the milk.

They're not making very much money at all (except very briefly, in the best case), the record company owns all their assets, often including the very clothes they wear. The hardly get any royalties because they have no writer's credits (I assume), and very shortly they will have no income whatsoever.

The most likely situation is that they will be saddled with a debt to record company for huge promotion costs, if (when) a proposed next hit fails to materialize, when the fickle market turns another way and they're last year's thing. That's how it works. It may appear like they're making a lot of money and are living the high life. That's called promotion. Don't but into it, it's simply not true.

RobF wrote: I imagine most 'record company marionettes' are happy as piggin' Larry

Yeah, they are, because they're young and gullible and believe the record company hype.

RobF wrote: on their nasty little newbuild Dubai estates....

Which, in case they actually exist, have to be paid for. It's hard to do that if you have no money.

RobF wrote: What the Sam Hell that has to do with the Sissies ever getting a new 12" out is a frank mystery.

I don't want to come across as pompous (I leave that to a certain ensemble leader we all know and love), but you should really try reading my posts again, I think you'll see what I mean.

Just do a little math. Let's assume you're Girls Aloud. You get really, really successful and sell one million records. Girls Aloud get 50p per CD sold. That's £ 500,000. Split that five ways. You're now down to £ 100,000 per member.
Now you have to pay back what you owe the record company for promotion (very, very expensive if handled through, let's say, BMG. Someone has to pay for those acres of marble flooring...), and you have to pay back the advance that you got when you signed the record company (let's be unrealistic here, and assume that you haven't spent it already on designer clother, blow, and trips to St Barts).

You also have the gas bill and the mortgage to pay. And perhaps even that Dubai estate, if you're really unlucky.

And you were thinking that this was going your way? Now's the time to start appearing in dodgy TV show, adverts for dog food, anything you can find. Oh my, is that a wrinkle? Send for the botox therapist!

Now consider that the way CD sales have been going, the level for a "Platinum Disc" is now down to 300,000 sold. Do the above math again. Then try to work out how to pay for an estate in Dubai if you're in Girls Aloud.

Perhaps start by selling off the Manolo Blahnik stilettos that you got "for free" at that glamorous photo session (and which you later found as item no 1221 on the promotion bill)?

They will also still be bound to a contract which in all likelihood gives the record company an option on the next record, which in can turn down if it feels like it. You still can't go to another record company.

The Sisters have talent, integrity and real fans. They don't need record companies in any way (well perhaps a small, clever and dedicated indie label). Today's situation is actually great for any creative artist who is able to perform live and who has direct contact with his/her fans.

Girls Aloud may have their 15 minutes of fame. Trust me, they will have ample time to reflect on their financial situation sooner rather than later.

sultan2075 wrote:
I am in fundamental agreement with you on this, and have made the same argument in the past. They could turn a bigger profit releasing independently. Of course, Von may not realize that, or may not want to do it himself.

That could very well be the case. It could be hard to think ouside the box if you have lived your professional life with a fixed set of rules for a long time, as well.

sultan2075 wrote: Someone (close to the band or close to someone close to the band, if I remember correctly), in another thread, commented that Von is surprisingly uncomfortable with modern musical technology (I think the subject was the archaic nature of the Doktor), which would certainly be an obstacle for the DIY route. Even though the technology is there for a professional-grade recording to be made with a much smaller investment, if he's not comfortable with it, it won't happen.

Or at least he would have to pay more for studio time, which would eat into his profits, making a new album a less attractive option.

I do like archaic drum machines/sequencers though... and the Doctor sounds great. Cold, machine-like and utterly soulless...

sultan2075 wrote: Another possibility is ego: He's been on the charts, he's done the rock star thing, etc. He may feel it isn't worth it if it's not going to be done on the same level he got accustomed to in the 80's/90's.

I suspect you're right, that probably has some part of it, but then again, it's just speculation of course.

What I was after when I started this thread was to find out if anyone had ever really asked Von about the legal situation, or if anyone had some facts. It just seems obvious to me that everything is not as it should be, with the silence regarding new material, the hatred towards East/West, Von doing anonymous stuff on the side, and the continued tours.

sultan2075 wrote: There are any number of reasons he might not do it. I honestly hadn't thought about contractual obligations, but it makes sense: maybe his hands are still tied. If that were the case, and I were in his shoes, I doubt I would want to admit it publicly (especially if I had a long-cultivated image as 'the man with the plan' who always thinks 12 moves ahead of his opponents). I might well play it up as a case of stubbornness on my part...

I think you nailed it there. That's certainly what I would do if I were him. Nobody wants to appear the victim, especially if it self-inflicted.

Do you know when the last real interview with E was made?

You're not one of those cynical fellows, who spend their time trying to convince people that the Sissies have done nothing of any value in the last 25 years, and yet still call themselves Sisters fans, are you ?

No, no, not at all. I loved Floodland. I think Vision Thing had a few good songs too, just a bit too metalled-up. I saw them many times in the early 90s and it was mucha fun.

But....

The "new" songs were just not good. His voice has been shot for a decade. I think anyone who says otherwise is in a bit of denial, really.

HOWEVER....

Comfortably Numb is a stonking cover.

stufarq wrote:

Badlander wrote:

RobF wrote:I doubt very much that Girls Aloud are at home this evening worrying about the gas bill and sniffing the milk.

Maybe, but they're going to Hell

If Nicola's going to hell then I'm buying my ticket right now.

I must admit that I had to google for pictures of Girls Aloud.
If I were in charge I'd rename them to "Skelleton Screw".
There's no make up in hell, so they'd pretty soon look godawfull and rattle while shagging. You can keep them.

Oh, and an edit to touch the actual topic:
German computer magazin C'T had a series of articles when the digital right management discussions were at their peak around 2000/2001 in which they split up the price of a CD and showed a diagram of who got what: Only 2% (before tax) went to the artist according to that calculation. I wouldn't be surprised if several of the "stars" were worried about the bill for their milk and thus started sniffing gas someday..
Not only did the record companies betray their customers massively when they switched to CDs, claiming they were more expensive to make, they even betray the artists. I guess the only opportunity one has in life to do buisness with worse criminals than when buying CDs is to go and buy heroin. Okay, let's not forget petrols stations. Insurances as well. Banks in general. Damn.
I trust you get my point.

Just in case some of you want a more, er.... nuanced look at how this all works, I give you Steve Albini: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

"Some of your friends are already this screwed..." while the guys from Fugazi probably live in nice middle class homes and have college funds for their kids. There's a lesson there....

Yggdrasil wrote:
I think you nailed it there. That's certainly what I would do if I were him. Nobody wants to appear the victim, especially if it self-inflicted.

Do you know when the last real interview with E was made?

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet... after the "strike" against East/West, Von is probably kryptonite to record labels. If I were a label decision maker, I don't know if I'd want to invest any money in someone prone to that kind of approach to conflict resolution either

sultan2075 wrote:One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet... after the "strike" against East/West, Von is probably kryptonite to record labels. If I were a label decision maker, I don't know if I'd want to invest any money in someone prone to that kind of approach to conflict resolution either

That's for sure.

Eldo isn't noted for being able to compromise either; he even (it seems to me) cultivates the "uncompromising artist" "my way or the highway" image.

I'm not sure I buy the contractually-hands-tied theory; he has appeared as a guest-artist on other people's recordings I believe?

Hell, if Chris, Ben, and Si recorded anything as Near Meth Experience (with mystery guest vocalist) or some such, that would probably be enough to get round any contracts, and it would be fairly obvious to any fan who it was.

markfiend wrote:and it would be fairly obvious to any fan who it was.

what fans are you refering to?
okey, we would know, but besides us?
how many of us heartlanders are there? (100/150)

Good point.

markfiend wrote:Good point.

its enough. word would get out to interested parties... look at 'gift'

There are enough fans left to sell out loads of venues. Not bad I'd say..

markfiend wrote: Eldo isn't noted for being able to compromise either; he even (it seems to me) cultivates the "uncompromising artist" "my way or the highway" image.

I remember that Floodland was an album full of compromises. Wasn't the word out that Flood I+II and Driven Like the Snow were intended to be a trilogy that was only split because the company wanted it?

Quiff Boy wrote:

markfiend wrote:Good point.

its enough. word would get out to interested parties... look at 'gift'

that was back when people where expecting a release. (by 2 bands that is ) now the word would spread yes, but who besides us 'true' fans is willing to buy this? it would never be good enough to get into any chart.

eotunun wrote:There are enough fans left to sell out loads of venues. Not bad I'd say..

Lets say those venue’s are half filled with the same people every gig.
Then let us assume half of the other half are music fans who go to these gigs for old times sake. How many of those would buy a record of lesser quality? (if you can believe the tales a great deal of heartlanders don’t even own Vision thing )

I heard a rumor there even are some individuals around who don't own First and Last and Always..
..heretics!

eotunun wrote:I heard a rumor there even are some individuals around who don't own First and Last and Always..
..heretics!

well, I only have 4 copy's of that one...




btw, I might be sounding real pessimistic, but I do wan't a new release!

sultan2075 wrote: One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet... after the "strike" against East/West, Von is probably kryptonite to record labels. If I were a label decision maker, I don't know if I'd want to invest any money in someone prone to that kind of approach to conflict resolution either

I remember a record company executive saying that if a young Bob Dylan showed up at his office today, he wouldn't sign it, just because the man is too much trouble. That alone says a lot about the state of the music industry.

christophe wrote:that was back when people where expecting a release. (by 2 bands that is ) now the word would spread yes, but who besides us 'true' fans is willing to buy this? it would never be good enough to get into any chart.

But who gives a rat's ass about the charts ? I sure don't.

sultan2075 wrote:Just in case some of you want a more, er.... nuanced look at how this all works, I give you Steve Albini: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html .

Well, what he describes it literally true, and he should know.

Here's another classic text by Courtney Love on the same subject, showing how you're better off working in a 7-11 than grossing 6 million dollars for a record company:

http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/

No signs of mansions in Dubai... and remember, both these texts were written almost a decade ago -when the record companies had vastly higher profits than they have today. Today, you're bound to be f***ed over even worse if you're stupid enough to sign a record contract.

Badlander wrote:But who gives a rat's ass about the charts ? I sure don't.

I don't care, most fan's will not care.
but those people in the street might, and I think would not likt the idea not to get the attention he got before.