Heartland

million voices wrote:TROUSERAGE - If the band are 100% spandex then the band are metal. If they are wearing denim or an assortment of materials then they can be defined as rock.

Regarding Trouserage (top word, by the way ) - if spandex is metal, and denim is rock, what is leather? Specifically, if you appear on stage wearing nothing but a leather codpiece covered in shiny studs, and a leather biker cap - what is that? Folk?

EvilBastard wrote:

million voices wrote:TROUSERAGE - If the band are 100% spandex then the band are metal. If they are wearing denim or an assortment of materials then they can be defined as rock.

Regarding Trouserage (top word, by the way ) - if spandex is metal, and denim is rock, what is leather? Specifically, if you appear on stage wearing nothing but a leather codpiece covered in shiny studs, and a leather biker cap - what is that? Folk?

That would be The Blue Oyster Bar.

Iz.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

EvilBastard wrote:

million voices wrote:TROUSERAGE - If the band are 100% spandex then the band are metal. If they are wearing denim or an assortment of materials then they can be defined as rock.

Regarding Trouserage (top word, by the way ) - if spandex is metal, and denim is rock, what is leather? Specifically, if you appear on stage wearing nothing but a leather codpiece covered in shiny studs, and a leather biker cap - what is that? Folk?

That would be The Blue Oyster Bar.

Iz.

There's a reference I've not heard in a while!

It is also difficult to use clothing as a guideline for genre.
Wearing spandex makes you metal, well no, lots of glamrock bands (later gen) wore naught but spandex but were deffo not metal. Poison, Mötley Crüe, Marillion, Faster Pussycat, even Fleppard, that's just rock or new gen glamrock.
Much doom an stoner bands tend to wear jeans from top to bottom, but not all. And not all black metalbands wear black armour, nine inch nails and corpsepaint, see Winterfylleth and Wolves In The Throne Room.

Iz.

EvilBastard wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

EvilBastard wrote: Regarding Trouserage (top word, by the way ) - if spandex is metal, and denim is rock, what is leather? Specifically, if you appear on stage wearing nothing but a leather codpiece covered in shiny studs, and a leather biker cap - what is that? Folk?

That would be The Blue Oyster Bar.

Iz.

There's a reference I've not heard in a while!

Constant Police Academy reruns here in Belgium make the mind grow narrower

Iz.

ahhhh. where to start? well I listen to all kinds of stuff, all time favorites would be Type O and Motley Crue. yeah went to the last concert in LA for that. re TON, never got over Peter's death. eh. anyways other than these, slightly old school, like Megadeth, Moonspell, Alice Cooper, Rob Zombie, Monster Magnet and the likes....the general rule of thumb is that headbanging is needed every so often for one to feel okay.. i consider myself lucky to have seen so many great bands as I was growing up...13 years old at Monsters of Rock with AC/DC, Metallica, Motley, then Guns when I was 14 for the first time..etc. we went to every possible concert in the arena back in the day even though we had to take the last "post" train out , change and wait for hours and got home in the morning..the joys of living 180 kms from the capital. was still all worth it.

Sziamiau: Wholeheartedly agree on the head banging!

Evil Bastard: Very interesting observations. I really love 70s Priest – Sad Wings of Destiny, Sin After Sin and Stained Class. They were groundbreaking. Rob Halford leather daddy and all lol! Along with Motorhead, Priest was a bridge between early 70s proto-metal like Sabbath and underground NWOBHM like Venom. Like you, I’d categorize Priest as metal as well, though after British Steel and their huge mainstream success, I think they became a hard rock act in everything but name. To me this reinforces my hunch (also millionvoices’ hunch) that attitude is crucially important in what makes a band metal. The closer you get to mainstream, the closer you get to the rock side. A softening of the edges if you will. Same goes for Metallica or Maiden or Def Leppard.

The splintering of metal into subgenres in the early 80s, is a result of exactly these amorphous origins. Disparate influences crystalized in their own way. Clean, operatic vocals, poodle hair and microphone humping went towards the pop charts. Extreme, faster, or waaay slower music and cult aesthetics bubbled up in regional underground scenes. By the early 80s you have albums that sit on the fence between metal and hard rock, for example, Def Leppard’s Pyromania (1983) but you also have albums that sit far away from the fence, for example, Slayer’s Show No Mercy (1983). Wherever the fence is/was planted, suddenly you have music that unequivocally belongs on the metal side. For me, the takeaway is, the late seventies and early eighties were a fascinating time in music and an incubation period for an explosion of creative new music far beyond good old rock and pop. Things got weird, noisy, dark, aggressive, transgressive. What a treat.

Speaking of Metallica, I couldn’t agree with you more. I used to love Kill ’Em All, it’s an important album, but haven’t listened to it in twenty years. That goes for most American thrash too except Slayer. Metallica bother me so much. There’s something so cynical and calculated and greedy about them. Though to be fair, they are the first and only and hugest metal-origin superstars, so unprecedented that it’s hard to compare their actions to any other bands. 150 million albums worldwide? What the ever-loving f**k?

Finally, it is really lovely to discuss music and everyone’s takes on the subject are so entertaining. Nerd overload!

Of course, since Metallica's Black Album, metal became something for the masses. For good or for bad, who's to say?
Now you got all hipsters, posers and popkids coming to metal concerts. I frown upon some of them, but mainly, I'm glad they get to listen to 'my' music.
It makes metal more popular, which means, more concerts to choose from, mainstream as well as underground.
Downside is the ticket and cd/vinyl prices are way higher for mainstream metal, and the bootleg prices are ridiculous.
Then again, I still have a lot of undergroudn channels to buy cd's for 12 euro or less or you go to the bands proper on their Bandcamp page.

For myself, I fondly remember the times I stood on stage with Cradle Of Filth (1993ish), and five years or so later they had their big breakthrough. All wannabe black metal kids turned their backs on CoF, because they became 'too mainstream', and I thought WTF? Finally they get the recognition they so deserve, and some asshole kids BLAME them for that?? Idem Dimmu Borgir, never saw a metal band working SO hard to get where they now stand... and in 1994 they were playing the same crappy stages in Germany where I played with my band... hats off to these bands.

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy: Very valid points. I think that diverse crowds are a good thing for music in general and we are a long way from the rigid tribalism of past decades. Even if the majority of fans at metal shows may still adopt a certain uniform or outlook. Perhaps this has to do with the internet, and the fact that you don’t need to be part of a certain “scene� to have access to a particular kind of music. Of course you still have “scene police,� kids who will turn their backs on a band for “selling out.� Though I think there’s a big difference between a band simply becoming more popular through a natural musical evolution, better distribution, well-timed interviews or critical kudos, and a band changing their sound specifically to appeal to a broader audience, licensing their music for commercials or products and things like that.

It boils down to a connection with music in the end. If the music speaks to you, there’s no arguing with that. Whether you were introduced to a band in a tiny club or through a TV show. Music can be enjoyed without context, but often the experience can be richer if you know the how and where and why. It’s a very personal thing. I have a soft spot for the first or very early records by bands. I love the first utterance, the initial expression. The thing that regular kids have created. After all, I’m just an ordinary person and that’s what’s thrilling to me. The more sophisticated and polished a band’s records become, the less they have to do with where the band as people come from. More to do with musicianship, philosophy, production, sometimes grandiosity. Not to say that’s bad or wrong. Some later albums by bands are clearly artistically superior.

Enough rambling. There are so many juicy topics you’ve raised. Idealism, realism, ambition, musical evolution, recognition, artistic integrity, longevity, success. And as to current working bands, it surely can’t be easy. Fickle audience, constant touring, meager sales. Hard work and dedication should pay off, though it doesn’t for most. Nothing but respect to those who persevere.

UniversalRinging wrote:Swinnow: I guess we agree and disagree. Beautiful how that works, ha!

Today I stumbled across footage of Napalm Death playing Glastonbury, and I can’t say I wish I was there, but it looked like fun. Incongruous, and inspired in that context for sure. Anyway, in celebration of ND, their first album’s upcoming thirtieth anniversary and its position as my gateway into the metal genres, I give you:

Pro-shot footage, or phone in the air stuff? I was hoping to see them but couldn't face sitting through hours of the BBC's coverage. I was a big fan back in my youth too, as my early metal favourites (Maiden, Ozzy, Megadeth, Metallica) gave way to faster and faster, heavier and heavier bands. I think for a while I only listened to bands that had members who were in, or had been in Napalm Death (Carcass, Godflesh, ENT, Cathedral). I lost interest in Napalm when they did Harmony Corruption (too death metal), but have dipped in and out over the years since. Did you hear Barney on Radio 2 pre Glastonbury? He proved himself to be a classy, intelligent guy.

I think for a while I only listened to bands that had members who were in, or had been in Napalm Death (Carcass, Godflesh, ENT, Cathedral)

You forgot Defecation... featuring Mick and Mitch Harris.

Iz.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

I think for a while I only listened to bands that had members who were in, or had been in Napalm Death (Carcass, Godflesh, ENT, Cathedral)

You forgot Defecation... featuring Mick and Mitch Harris.

Iz.

And that's just reminded me of Scorn, which was also Mick Harris, along with Nik Bullen and Justin Broadrick, both of whom were on side one of Scum. But Scorn were not metal, so the single I bought was no good to the 15 year old me. It must have left my possession 20 years ago, never to be thought of again until now .

Izzy HaveMercy: Too funny, I was thinking, AND Benediction (and Scorn).

Mothra: It may not be “metal� but Scorn’s Vae Solis is so good, give it another chance lol! I’m with you. Had that same ND related bands phase. Love that constellation of musicians.

As far as your previous post - just amateur phone videos. Although apart from s**t sound, it’s nuts how good cameras are these days. Same for me re: Harmony Corruption. Always skip over that and go right to Fear, Emptiness, Despair, which is my favorite Barney-era album. And I did listen to the BBC interview, really lovely stuff and hilarious um, vocal coaching.

Mothra wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

I think for a while I only listened to bands that had members who were in, or had been in Napalm Death (Carcass, Godflesh, ENT, Cathedral)

You forgot Defecation... featuring Mick and Mitch Harris.

Iz.

And that's just reminded me of Scorn, which was also Mick Harris, along with Nik Bullen and Justin Broadrick, both of whom were on side one of Scum. But Scorn were not metal, so the single I bought was no good to the 15 year old me. It must have left my possession 20 years ago, never to be thought of again until now .

The 'scene' back then was very fertile soil with a lot of good 'inbreed', leading to interesting crossbreeds of styles and genres... not too surprising the term 'crossover' was used for the first time in that era...

IZ.

And of course in those days everybody ended up, willy-nilly, doing some or other collab with John Zorn

IZ.

BTW, now listening to the sheer brilliance that is Fleshgod Apocalypse.

The first time I saw these Italians, I think it was three or four years ago at Graspop Metal Meeting, they blew me away with their sheer speed and aggressiveness... all the while maintaining the classical/baroque feel they always implement in their music and even their dresscode.

Meet Fleshgod Apocalypse, extreme baroque death metal!

Check a videoclip here

And yes, they pull that off live as well!





IZ.

UniversalRinging wrote:Izzy HaveMercy: Too funny, I was thinking, AND Benediction (and Scorn).

Mothra: It may not be “metal� but Scorn’s Vae Solis is so good, give it another chance lol! I’m with you. Had that same ND related bands phase. Love that constellation of musicians.

As far as your previous post - just amateur phone videos. Although apart from s**t sound, it’s nuts how good cameras are these days. Same for me re: Harmony Corruption. Always skip over that and go right to Fear, Emptiness, Despair, which is my favorite Barney-era album. And I did listen to the BBC interview, really lovely stuff and hilarious um, vocal coaching.

I am now struggling to get started at work thinking about long lost metal albums from that time. Have remembered I had Terrorizer's 'World Downfall', with Jesse(?) from Napalm Death, which led me to Morbid Angel.

Will do some YouTube second-chancing on Scorn later today.

Metal was the the first genre of music I got into. It all started with Alice Cooper putting out 'Poison' in 89, from there anything that was pop music got rapidly binned, it was all Guns n Roses, Skid Row for a while, then Metallica, then deeper and deeper into the grindcore stuff. Maiden & Sabbath have been constants in my life since I was an early teen. Hoping to find the time over the weekend to watch Saxon at the Wacken Festival on Sky Arts

Izzy HaveMercy: Fleshgod Apocalypse - Jesus Christ, the drum sound. How do they even?!

Mothra: Haha I get a kick out of your trip down memory lane. Best part about Heartland is the stories.

UniversalRinging wrote:Izzy HaveMercy: Fleshgod Apocalypse - Jesus Christ, the drum sound. How do they even?!

Technique and dedication and, admittedly, triggering of the drums

I will post something by Dark Funeral one of these days then, he's a real animal on drums!

Iz.

UniversalRinging wrote:Mothra: Haha I get a kick out of your trip down memory lane. Best part about Heartland is the stories.

I gave Scorn another go. White Irises Blind & Lick Forever Dog. I stand by my teenage decision to sell/return whatever one it was I owned back then (I think Lick Forever Dog) . I do remember that I bought it from the huge HMV on Oxford Street, and my best mate looking incredulously at me when I tried to explain that it wasn't metal, but that it had 3 people that were in Napalm Death on it. I expect he was buying a Pantera album or something at the same time.

Izzy HaveMercy: I got caught up reading about triggering drums for way too long lol. Re: Dark Funeral, please do. I've only heard Secrets of the Black Arts and that was a long time ago, and I know they have tons of albums.

Mothra: Ha! Fair enough. Good man for taking another chance.

I popped this one on this morning:
Weakling: Dead as Dreams (lovely inscrutable logo right?)



Yowza. Sounds as good as ever. My favorite US Black Metal album. Noisy, chaotic and bleak as fuuuuck. Never even heard of them until five or six years after it was released on a drive from San Francisco to LA. Incredible on the I5 highway at night, windows rolled down and chain-smoking.

UniversalRinging wrote:Izzy HaveMercy: Re: Dark Funeral, please do. I've only heard Secrets of the Black Arts and that was a long time ago, and I know they have tons of albums.

Here he is, the Beast Nils Fjellström drumcam, for your drummer pleasure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGam8QIwo

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

UniversalRinging wrote:Izzy HaveMercy: Re: Dark Funeral, please do. I've only heard Secrets of the Black Arts and that was a long time ago, and I know they have tons of albums.

Here he is, the Beast Nils Fjellström drumcam, for your drummer pleasure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGam8QIwo

IZ.

Wow - he's like one of those Duracell bunnies, he just keeps going!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF6FxmixJk

Charlie wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

UniversalRinging wrote:Izzy HaveMercy: Re: Dark Funeral, please do. I've only heard Secrets of the Black Arts and that was a long time ago, and I know they have tons of albums.

Here he is, the Beast Nils Fjellström drumcam, for your drummer pleasure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGam8QIwo

IZ.

Wow - he's like one of those Duracell bunnies, he just keeps going!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF6FxmixJk

You jest , lo! he does that for 1 hour 20 minutes with just two seconds of pausing between songs. Then he jumps up and looks around as if he's thinking "ok, that was a nice warm-up, what's next?"

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy & Charlie: HOLY COW! Lolololololol! Seriously impressive. Wow, just wow.