Heartland

And then there's Depeche Mode, still sounding harder better faster stronger than ever.





(Hold my beer)

Pista wrote:

Yggdrasil wrote:. AE:s voice can hardly be a reason technically.

Yes it can.

I don't think so. While you make many good points, you see shows all the time with spoken word or even whispered parts (in similar venues, with similar amounts of other orchestration going on) that are way louder than anything the Sisters ever manage to pull off these days.

Perhaps it's true that it's a technical limitation they're facing, but if so, it must be related to the PA equipment the band is currently using. I guess the super lightweight guitar sound is down to the amps they're using, but surely it could sound better than it does.

I just feel these sound issues, and the extremely low volume, needlessly brings down the performance which would otherwise be good.[/i]

Von's voice is shot and arrangements mean there's a massive hole at the centre of their live sound.
1990-1993 was a gradual evolution from the 85 stuff based on their studio sound at the time. Didn't Von have some actual vocal coaching for his return to touring (after the cancelled 1990 dates?). The synths and then backing vox came in gently over time, TJ left so the doctor took over. I don't remember any howls of protest at the time, those '92 gigs seem almost universally loved.
The 93 shows continued that, bringing older stuff into the set in a banging VT style. And then they f**ked off!

But when they came back, none of the new takes on the older stuff were improvements - lots of classics were butchered. But Pearson brought some continuity, new material and the guitars still sounded right tonally. The parts for the second guitar started to become nothing more than chugga parts played by who ever stood on the right. They were loud though.

Fast forward again to 2003, Von can still sing but is increasingly pissy and bad tempered with his audience. They're still loud but that moment of actually doing something has passed and they f**k off again.

Line up change for 2006 and we get to the current sound - it really hasn't changed a great deal since then. They're not as loud and cos they're not as loud all the issues with their live sound are more obvious - lack of vocal range and power, thin lead guitar sound and some truly odd choices with the synth & bass sounds. Worst offence is that it all sounds very clean, where did the scuzz go?

czuczu wrote:Von's voice is shot and arrangements mean there's a massive hole at the centre of their live sound.
1990-1993 was a gradual evolution from the 85 stuff based on their studio sound at the time. Didn't Von have some actual vocal coaching for his return to touring (after the cancelled 1990 dates?). The synths and then backing vox came in gently over time, TJ left so the doctor took over. I don't remember any howls of protest at the time, those '92 gigs seem almost universally loved.
The 93 shows continued that, bringing older stuff into the set in a banging VT style. And then they f**ked off!

But when they came back, none of the new takes on the older stuff were improvements - lots of classics were butchered. But Pearson brought some continuity, new material and the guitars still sounded right tonally. The parts for the second guitar started to become nothing more than chugga parts played by who ever stood on the right. They were loud though.

Fast forward again to 2003, Von can still sing but is increasingly pissy and bad tempered with his audience. They're still loud but that moment of actually doing something has passed and they f**k off again.

Line up change for 2006 and we get to the current sound - it really hasn't changed a great deal since then. They're not as loud and cos they're not as loud so all the issues with their live sound are more obvious - lack of vocal range and power, thin lead guitar sound and some truly odd choices with the synth & bass sounds. Worst offence is that it all sounds very clean, where did the scuzz go?

My feelings exactly. Did he get a cheap PA and amps in 2006, which he has stuck with since?

I believe I heard that Ben had been involved with changing out some of the equipment to make it more portable, but it doesn't seem like whatever change they made has improved the sound.

You both make valid points, I have heard similar things too EMWK. This is the kind of discussion (I think) HL has a role for, amongst the biscuits and songtitle fap.

Anyone who suggests that they have never left a 'Girl's' gig since, at least 2001, with no question marks has obviously been lottery winner lucky or been to few of them.

The Roundhouse in Sept was an upturn for me, maybe new tunes swung it, don't know yet, but hope has emerged again. I'll be at Leeds (obv) and have booked a long weekend break in a Barca hotel while I work on a little friend to venture to another gothic quarter outside of these islands.

I'll also be at another (spin off) band's gigs in Leeds and elsewhere in the Spring and know I'll see familiar enlightened faces at both.

Let it happen bass player....

For me this whole thread is just another disappointment of this fanbase. The last tour was the best we've seen in decades ... with a new guitarist, new songs, Von's voice improved (until that idiot cold hit him in Wroclaw) and the mood and attitude of the band all played hand in hand and changed into a more than welcome optimitistic direction ... and I still hear you all scream with satisfaction in the vids of the second London night and at other gigs ... and what comes now, only few weeks later, in return?

Bla, the sound is bad. Bla, Von's voice is broken, Bla, the guitars are weak and boring ... bla any other old act is miles better than that ... bla, bla, bla ... each year the same, while The Sisters are doing the best they can to please you ... phh. I feel very, very sorry for your very little ears and little hearts.

Anyway, you might wholeheartedly go on now with that idiocy. I won't look again at this sad treat.

The setlists were always a surprise, the only way you knew what was getting played would be to pester Jez or someone beforehand. I still vividly remember all the puzzled faces and then recognition when they opened with Kiss that first night in Brixton. Bliss!

Also, we were all quarter of a century younger for those 93 gigs. Which was nice

Being645 wrote:For me this whole thread is just another disappointment of this fanbase. The last tour was the best we've seen in decades ... with a new guitarist, new songs, Von's voice improved (until that idiot cold hit him in Wroclaw) and the mood and attitude of the band all played hand in hand and changed into a more than welcome optimitistic direction ... and I still hear you all scream with satisfaction in the vids of the second London night and at other gigs ... and what comes now, only few weeks later, in return?

Bla, the sound is bad. Bla, Von's voice is broken, Bla, the guitars are weak and boring ... bla any other old act is miles better than that ... bla, bla, bla ... each year the same, while The Sisters are doing the best they can to please you ... phh. I feel very, very sorry for your very little ears and little hearts.

Anyway, you might wholeheartedly go on now with that idiocy. I won't look again at this sad treat.

And that closed thinking orthodoxy is why we now suffer Trump and Brexit!

Refusal to debate openly is a precursor to totalitarianism (of right or left), history tells us that ends badly.

Swinnow wrote:

Being645 wrote:For me this whole thread is just another disappointment of this fanbase. The last tour was the best we've seen in decades ... with a new guitarist, new songs, Von's voice improved (until that idiot cold hit him in Wroclaw) and the mood and attitude of the band all played hand in hand and changed into a more than welcome optimitistic direction ... and I still hear you all scream with satisfaction in the vids of the second London night and at other gigs ... and what comes now, only few weeks later, in return?

Bla, the sound is bad. Bla, Von's voice is broken, Bla, the guitars are weak and boring ... bla any other old act is miles better than that ... bla, bla, bla ... each year the same, while The Sisters are doing the best they can to please you ... phh. I feel very, very sorry for your very little ears and little hearts.

Anyway, you might wholeheartedly go on now with that idiocy. I won't look again at this sad treat.

And that closed thinking orthodoxy is why we now suffer Trump and Brexit!

Refusal to debate openly is a precursor to totalitarianism (of right or left), history tells us that ends badly.

Closed thinking orthodoxy? Do you really know what these words mean? I wonder...

There is no debate when everything always meets with the same accusations of bad, bad, bad, bad, whatever you say ...
Every child knows that those who don't want to respect you will never do so, however much you try. And they will repeat the same negative judgements for ever again.
There is a word for that strategy, in German we call it "Rabulistik". So any "debate" with such people is just an illusion and a mere waste of time ... Time one can spend
on real activities not only on mouthing sensationalist words like "Trump" and "Brexit", "totalitarianism (right or left)" and "history" in some online forum of lesser influence ...

But you know that your own words are agianst ... your own words (and proving that Swinnow is right)?

Others bad, bad, bad, meets your good, good, good. It's always like that.

Fact is that this tour was lot more better than they were, let's say, 10 years ago, but objectively, it's far from very good on other planets. There's a lot of enthusiasm, because Dylan and Ben are doing great job, the Band have manage to play gigs that are significantly louder than before, yet all raised above arguments remain valid (guitar sound is stericle, maybe because Ben wants it to sound like this, maybe other factors are in play). Face it. You can enjoy gig, on one hand, and be honest on the other, it doesn't hurt and does anyone harm.

Bartek wrote:But you know that your own words are agianst ... your own words (and proving that Swinnow is right)?

Others bad, bad, bad, meets your good, good, good. It's always like that.

Fact is that this tour was lot more better than they were, let's say, 10 years ago, but objectively, it's far from very good on other planets. There's a lot of enthusiasm, because Dylan and Ben are doing great job, the Band have manage to play gigs that are significantly louder than before, yet all raised above arguments remain valid (guitar sound is stericle, maybe because Ben wants it to sound like this, maybe other factors are in play). Face it. You can enjoy gig, on one hand, and be honest on the other, it doesn't hurt and does anyone harm.

According to this logic, only those are honest who dislike the sound and share your opinion and glorify the past ... while all others are liars, phh.
What a handy judgement. And oh, no it doesn't hurt anyone ... only those sort of sub-creatures with a different opinion.

Being645 wrote:

Bartek wrote:But you know that your own words are agianst ... your own words (and proving that Swinnow is right)?

Others bad, bad, bad, meets your good, good, good. It's always like that.

Fact is that this tour was lot more better than they were, let's say, 10 years ago, but objectively, it's far from very good on other planets. There's a lot of enthusiasm, because Dylan and Ben are doing great job, the Band have manage to play gigs that are significantly louder than before, yet all raised above arguments remain valid (guitar sound is stericle, maybe because Ben wants it to sound like this, maybe other factors are in play). Face it. You can enjoy gig, on one hand, and be honest on the other, it doesn't hurt and does anyone harm.

According to this logic, only those are honest who dislike the sound and share your opinion and glorify the past ... while all others are liars, phh.
What a handy judgement. And oh, no it doesn't hurt anyone ... only those sort of sub-creatures with a different opinion.

I think he's trying to find a middle ground tbh.
Some will agree with the OP, some won't. That's just normal.
The reasoning behind the differing opinions are where the biggest disagreements creep in.
But it speaks volumes that we are all still passionate enough to hold these points of view. Some of which are very personal.
Wouldn't happen with 99% of the current crop of disposable "Barby rock & roll" acts coming thick & fast out of the industry's sausage machine.

You're (Being645) putting words in my mouth - from where comes conclusion that I'm gloryfing the past? Just to let you know: my first TSOM gig was in 2006. And other of your reply: you're taking this waaay too serious and even more too personal. Achtung! You can honestly say that you enjoyed the gig (emotion-based opinion) but/and say that there was drawback in terms of sound (fact-based opinion), there's nothing contradict in this.
I was just and only try to point out that people disagree with eachother. FACT!™©
Get over it.

while The Sisters are doing the best they can to please you ...

Change Sisters for DDR and it could be a Honecker quote!

And in summing up The Great Sisters Paradox (which pobably covers a lot of fans).......I think the general Sisters sound is a bit s**t but I still can't wait to see them the next time round.

Being645 wrote:For me this whole thread is just another disappointment of this fanbase. .

So attempting to discuss why the band's live sound is lacking these days disappoint you?

I and others who feel the same way are not real fans?

That's the first time I've ever been called that. I've been a diehard SoM fan since I first heard Alice right when it came out, and have followed the band in all its incarnations since then, and have enjoyed them all. But apparently that doesn't allow me to hold any opinions on the band beyond pure adoration.

Being645 wrote: The last tour was the best we've seen in decades ... with a new guitarist, new songs, Von's voice improved (until that idiot cold hit him in Wroclaw) and the mood and attitude of the band all played hand in hand and changed into a more than welcome optimitistic direction ...

I happen to agree with this, if that means anything to you. But that doesn't change the fact that they live sound is letting the band down. They could easily be so much better, just with better sound. As utterly anal as Von is with production, I'm surprised he's letting the live sound slide like this.

Being645 wrote: and I still hear you all scream with satisfaction in the vids of the second London night and at other gigs ... and what comes now, only few weeks later, in return?

Eh? One is not allowed to enjoy a concert, and still have opinions about it?

Being645 wrote: Bla, the sound is bad. Bla, Von's voice is broken, Bla, the guitars are weak and boring ...

All true. Is all this unimportant to you? Speaking of being a fan, and all that. In my mind, it means someone who cares deeply about a band. I do. That's why I also have opinions about them, and I wish they would always shine as brightly as possible.

Being645 wrote: bla any other old act is miles better than that ...

Now, nobody said anything of the sort, did they?

But most (all) other bands have better live sound than the Sisters have, which is a shame.

Being645 wrote: bla, bla, bla ... each year the same, while The Sisters are doing the best they can to please you ...

I sincerely hope that Von NEVER does anything to "please" us fans, ever.

I prefer artistic integrity and vision, no matter how idiosyncratic (or rather, the more the better).

Being645 wrote: phh. I feel very, very sorry for your very little ears and little hearts.

Anyway, you might wholeheartedly go on now with that idiocy. I won't look again at this sad treat.

You really make an effort to make friends and listen to other people, don't you? At least I'm glad we have your permission to keep discussing. Thank you.

This ain´t what we're used to in here is it? Im here for the good vibes! Agree do disagree and be kind to one another. There´s a new tour coming on!

Depprocksfarfar wrote:This ain´t what we're used to in here is it? Im here for the good vibes! Agree do disagree and be kind to one another. There´s a new tour coming on!

^^^^^^^^
This

Play nice please.

Pista wrote:

Depprocksfarfar wrote:This ain´t what we're used to in here is it? Im here for the good vibes! Agree do disagree and be kind to one another. There´s a new tour coming on!

^^^^^^^^
This

Play nice please.

Indeed. I remember my old grandpapa telling me, son never talk about religion, politics, football, the Sisters v m*****n, or which version of the Sisters is the best...it'll only lead to punches.

abridged wrote:

Pista wrote:

Depprocksfarfar wrote:This ain´t what we're used to in here is it? Im here for the good vibes! Agree do disagree and be kind to one another. There´s a new tour coming on!

^^^^^^^^
This

Play nice please.

Indeed. I remember my old grandpapa telling me, son never talk about religion, politics, football, the Sisters v m*****n, or which version of the Sisters is the best...it'll only lead to punches.

You missed Star Wars off that list

czuczu wrote:Line up change for 2006 and we get to the current sound - it really hasn't changed a great deal since then. They're not as loud and cos they're not as loud so all the issues with their live sound are more obvious - lack of vocal range and power, thin lead guitar sound and some truly odd choices with the synth & bass sounds. Worst offence is that it all sounds very clean, where did the scuzz go?

Yggdrasil wrote:My feelings exactly. Did he get a cheap PA and amps in 2006, which he has stuck with since?

I believe I heard that Ben had been involved with changing out some of the equipment to make it more portable, but it doesn't seem like whatever change they made has improved the sound.

Actually, it was Chris who admittedly swapped the gear around so that the band could get across continents more economically. The hissy-fit not-having-a-record-deal Von evolved towards an ok-with-nostalgia-act Von, but empirical evidence suggests their live sound suffered in consequence.

But I too noticed the simplified arrangements even before that. I've yet to hear live guitars on Logic that beat the Tour Thing -era; that chord progression leading up to the chorus is lovely. Subsequent lineups have played it more haphazardly - and Von stopped going for the big blood-curdling howls.

And, this is very much by memory, I seem to recall rumblings of a London show in the late 90's (Astoria?), with a vacant mixing desk for the most of it. While not completely unmanned, it implied the band tried out a bit of Doc Avalanche approach with the sound mix (:eek:')

Pista wrote:

abridged wrote:

Pista wrote: ^^^^^^^^
This

Play nice please.

Indeed. I remember my old grandpapa telling me, son never talk about religion, politics, football, the Sisters v m*****n, or which version of the Sisters is the best...it'll only lead to punches.

You missed Star Wars off that list

Heh. True!

Yggdrasil wrote:But that doesn't change the fact that they live sound is letting the band down.

Here's the thing, subjectivity. The live sound is not letting the band down, it's (via bootleg recordings) letting you or your expectations down. Those two things are rather different. It can't possibly be letting the band down cos they keep on selling out gigs. That is a fact, the above quote from yourself is an opinion. Ascribing opinions as facts is never a good way to conduct a debate.

Undoubtedly the sound has changed, and the main reason for it has been expressed twice in this thread and dismissed by yourself both times. Shame cos the band's website explains this reason too.

But seeing as this is a civilised place for debate, please do explain how you think the band could 'easily be so much better'. This would surely lead to a more productive debate, than simply reiterating your opinion repeatedly. Please remember the golden rule of not ascribing said opinion as fact in your reply...

copper wrote:
And, this is very much by memory, I seem to recall rumblings of a London show in the late 90's (Astoria?), with a vacant mixing desk for the most of it. While not completely unmanned, it implied the band tried out a bit of Doc Avalanche approach with the sound mix (:eek:')

2006. Still bitter.

FWIW I don't think they sound as good in person, not judging by the recordings..