Heartland

sultan2075 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 00:28

Incoming! wrote: ↑06 Nov 2024, 18:37 Some thoughts :

Misogyny still alive and well (look at early stats)

We are still fighting the US Civil War

Democrats still a mess

9 of 10 states voted down abortion ban

One country lived under the rule of a narcissist fascist for 13 years. We can handle another 4

There won’t be a January 6 uprising

Glad I saw TSOM play in US maybe for last time

Kansas City Chiefs American football ball team won in over time last night. They are now 8-0

Let’s all pray for the US Joint Chiefs to once again have a back up plan if Trump moves his fingers to initiate nuclear use

There are many, many reasons for someone to vote against Harris other than misogyny; that's a lazy argument.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 03:47

sultan2075 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 00:28

Incoming! wrote: ↑06 Nov 2024, 18:37 Some thoughts :

Misogyny still alive and well (look at early stats)

We are still fighting the US Civil War

Democrats still a mess

9 of 10 states voted down abortion ban

One country lived under the rule of a narcissist fascist for 13 years. We can handle another 4

There won’t be a January 6 uprising

Glad I saw TSOM play in US maybe for last time

Kansas City Chiefs American football ball team won in over time last night. They are now 8-0

Let’s all pray for the US Joint Chiefs to once again have a back up plan if Trump moves his fingers to initiate nuclear use

There are many, many reasons for someone to vote against Harris other than misogyny; that's a lazy argument.

It may be a lazy argument but is it wrong? Will America ever elect a female President? Both times they had that choice they went for Trump instead.

sultan2075 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 04:09

ribbons69 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 03:47

sultan2075 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 00:28

There are many, many reasons for someone to vote against Harris other than misogyny; that's a lazy argument.

It may be a lazy argument but is it wrong? Will America ever elect a female President? Both times they had that choice they went for Trump instead.

Of course America will elect a female president. But she won’t be elected because she’s female.

Again, this is a lazy argument. There are actual reasons people vote for and against candidates. “It’s sexism” or “it’s racism” are ways people avoid confronting or addressing those reasons. That’s how the American pundit class got blindsided by this. That’s how most of my colleagues in political science got blindsided too.

Electrochrome wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 12:36 I remain convinced that a large portion of the American electorate votes based primarily on 1) the price of a gallon of gas, and 2) the price of eggs and milk. That's it. Everything else is an abstraction. Cost of living is important, yes, but people apply some sort of magical power to the President to control the price of gas and food. I do think millions of Americans would accept a president for life and a nationalized oil industry that fixed the price of a gallon of gas. As long as they have that, they'll happily accept you gutting their services, outsourcing their jobs and further widening the wealth gap. They can always blame someone else.

As long as they have that, they'll happily accept you gutting their services, outsourcing their jobs and further widening the wealth gap.

GC wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 11:00 The majority of white women voted for Trump. The (overwhelming) majority of black women voted for Harris. (Data from The Guardian)
Dont know where Im going with this point but very interesting in the context of misogony and racism.

Incoming! wrote: ↑06 Nov 2024, 18:37 Some thoughts :

Misogyny still alive and well (look at early stats)

We are still fighting the US Civil War

Democrats still a mess

9 of 10 states voted down abortion ban

One country lived under the rule of a narcissist fascist for 13 years. We can handle another 4

There won’t be a January 6 uprising

Glad I saw TSOM play in US maybe for last time

Kansas City Chiefs American football ball team won in over time last night. They are now 8-0

Let’s all pray for the US Joint Chiefs to once again have a back up plan if Trump moves his fingers to initiate nuclear use

sharedgum wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 16:04 @sultan2075

First of all, yes, you are right, there have been conflicts during the Obama years (as well as Obama and Trump drone attacks), but my point is that in terms of the scale of these conflicts, it has been less than before, in comparison to Iraq and Afghanistan. I feel bad for saying this, because one civilian casualty is one too many, but I just don't know how else to describe it.

Back to your other points - when you say that I am "too outraged," you are no longer providing an explanation and theories (which is what everyone else seems to be doing), but you are providing justifications and telling me how to feel. Did you not read my point about Trump trying to forcefully overturn results of an election, while Harris peacefully congratulated her opponent? Did he not call the Georgia Secretary of State and tell him to "find him some 15,000 votes", or whatever it was? Did his mob not attack the Capitol on January 6 and chant "hang Mike Pence"? Is that not a reason to be fearful? His own chief of staff called him a fascist.

Hopefully, when your young students said that they were going to vote for Trump because they did not want to get drafted, you noted to them that they should use their critical thinking skills more - i.e., that draft has not been around for 50+ years, that this is a debunked claim and that at no point did Harris say anything like that, and that they should not base their decisions on what a convicted felon who based his entire career on lying and cheating said while rambling at his own rally. Including the racist lie that Obama was not born in the US, which is how he launched his political career. That his decisions and misinformation related to COVID resulted in more civilian American deaths than, oh I don't know, anything? And that yes, while there are things that need to be addressed in this country, he is not capable of doing that. Or something like that?

Also, one can note, as others have, that maybe misogyny and racism did not have as much to do with the results, but calling that argument "lazy" is disrespectful when these are the very foundations on which this country was built upon (i.e., taking advantage of non-white-male segments of the population) and are very much alive today. Regarding the economy and inflation, all those things were forces that were not unique to America and were tied to the patterns during the COVID-19 pandemic globally. What was not unique, in my opinion, was the Biden Administration response, which, even with what you have noted, improved the conditions tremendously - i.e., things would have been much worse without the Inflation Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. Someone else mentioned the price of gasoline - it is interesting to me that before the election, they were lower than they had been in a long time (I can't be a hypocrite and say that this is because of Biden, because presidents cannot really influence this, and politicians should not campaign on this).

I am going to try to make my main point again, and that is:

1. Do I recognize that many people voted for him?
Yes, more than for Harris, which is why he won. This time, he even appears to be on track to win the popular vote.
2. Do I think that the reasons include current prices of goods, immigration, the economy, racism, and misogyny, but that not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist/misogynist?
Yes.
3. Do I think that people have somehow found Trump's pattern of behavior - including racism, fascist tendencies, convictions related to hush money and sexual assaults (this one in civil court), having no idea how to run anything, let alone a country - not disqualifying and more acceptable than whatever issues and transgressions they have found with Harris?
Yes, obviously, he won.
4. Can I have a personal opinion that #3 above is unacceptable, whatever the reasons may be, and be outraged about it?
Yes, 100%.
5. Can I have a personal opinion that the economic and immigration reasons noted in #2 pale in comparison to the threat that he poses to this country and the world and that Harris would address those better anyway?
Yes, 100%.

sultan2075 wrote: ↑12 Nov 2024, 05:57

sharedgum wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 16:04 @sultan2075

First of all, yes, you are right, there have been conflicts during the Obama years (as well as Obama and Trump drone attacks), but my point is that in terms of the scale of these conflicts, it has been less than before, in comparison to Iraq and Afghanistan. I feel bad for saying this, because one civilian casualty is one too many, but I just don't know how else to describe it.

Back to your other points - when you say that I am "too outraged," you are no longer providing an explanation and theories (which is what everyone else seems to be doing), but you are providing justifications and telling me how to feel. Did you not read my point about Trump trying to forcefully overturn results of an election, while Harris peacefully congratulated her opponent? Did he not call the Georgia Secretary of State and tell him to "find him some 15,000 votes", or whatever it was? Did his mob not attack the Capitol on January 6 and chant "hang Mike Pence"? Is that not a reason to be fearful? His own chief of staff called him a fascist.

Hopefully, when your young students said that they were going to vote for Trump because they did not want to get drafted, you noted to them that they should use their critical thinking skills more - i.e., that draft has not been around for 50+ years, that this is a debunked claim and that at no point did Harris say anything like that, and that they should not base their decisions on what a convicted felon who based his entire career on lying and cheating said while rambling at his own rally. Including the racist lie that Obama was not born in the US, which is how he launched his political career. That his decisions and misinformation related to COVID resulted in more civilian American deaths than, oh I don't know, anything? And that yes, while there are things that need to be addressed in this country, he is not capable of doing that. Or something like that?

Also, one can note, as others have, that maybe misogyny and racism did not have as much to do with the results, but calling that argument "lazy" is disrespectful when these are the very foundations on which this country was built upon (i.e., taking advantage of non-white-male segments of the population) and are very much alive today. Regarding the economy and inflation, all those things were forces that were not unique to America and were tied to the patterns during the COVID-19 pandemic globally. What was not unique, in my opinion, was the Biden Administration response, which, even with what you have noted, improved the conditions tremendously - i.e., things would have been much worse without the Inflation Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. Someone else mentioned the price of gasoline - it is interesting to me that before the election, they were lower than they had been in a long time (I can't be a hypocrite and say that this is because of Biden, because presidents cannot really influence this, and politicians should not campaign on this).

I am going to try to make my main point again, and that is:

1. Do I recognize that many people voted for him?
Yes, more than for Harris, which is why he won. This time, he even appears to be on track to win the popular vote.
2. Do I think that the reasons include current prices of goods, immigration, the economy, racism, and misogyny, but that not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist/misogynist?
Yes.
3. Do I think that people have somehow found Trump's pattern of behavior - including racism, fascist tendencies, convictions related to hush money and sexual assaults (this one in civil court), having no idea how to run anything, let alone a country - not disqualifying and more acceptable than whatever issues and transgressions they have found with Harris?
Yes, obviously, he won.
4. Can I have a personal opinion that #3 above is unacceptable, whatever the reasons may be, and be outraged about it?
Yes, 100%.
5. Can I have a personal opinion that the economic and immigration reasons noted in #2 pale in comparison to the threat that he poses to this country and the world and that Harris would address those better anyway?
Yes, 100%.

You seem to think I am making a normative claim. I’m not. Again: I didn’t vote for him and I’m not justifying anything. I am explaining why he won. I’m glad you think I should argue with my students about their fears. Personally I don’t think that’s my job. I wouldn’t be any good at it if it were. I don’t really care about their fears. I’m not a therapist. I’m not a parent. I’m not a clergyman of some kind.

You might consider the possibility that moralism, especially moralistic outrage, is often an obstacle to clear thinking. You can think everyone is evil or foolish, or you can try to understand why people choose differently than you yourself would under similar circumstances. Most of the time, the one is an obstacle to the other.

sharedgum wrote: ↑14 Nov 2024, 20:31

sultan2075 wrote: ↑12 Nov 2024, 05:57

sharedgum wrote: ↑07 Nov 2024, 16:04 @sultan2075

First of all, yes, you are right, there have been conflicts during the Obama years (as well as Obama and Trump drone attacks), but my point is that in terms of the scale of these conflicts, it has been less than before, in comparison to Iraq and Afghanistan. I feel bad for saying this, because one civilian casualty is one too many, but I just don't know how else to describe it.

Back to your other points - when you say that I am "too outraged," you are no longer providing an explanation and theories (which is what everyone else seems to be doing), but you are providing justifications and telling me how to feel. Did you not read my point about Trump trying to forcefully overturn results of an election, while Harris peacefully congratulated her opponent? Did he not call the Georgia Secretary of State and tell him to "find him some 15,000 votes", or whatever it was? Did his mob not attack the Capitol on January 6 and chant "hang Mike Pence"? Is that not a reason to be fearful? His own chief of staff called him a fascist.

Hopefully, when your young students said that they were going to vote for Trump because they did not want to get drafted, you noted to them that they should use their critical thinking skills more - i.e., that draft has not been around for 50+ years, that this is a debunked claim and that at no point did Harris say anything like that, and that they should not base their decisions on what a convicted felon who based his entire career on lying and cheating said while rambling at his own rally. Including the racist lie that Obama was not born in the US, which is how he launched his political career. That his decisions and misinformation related to COVID resulted in more civilian American deaths than, oh I don't know, anything? And that yes, while there are things that need to be addressed in this country, he is not capable of doing that. Or something like that?

Also, one can note, as others have, that maybe misogyny and racism did not have as much to do with the results, but calling that argument "lazy" is disrespectful when these are the very foundations on which this country was built upon (i.e., taking advantage of non-white-male segments of the population) and are very much alive today. Regarding the economy and inflation, all those things were forces that were not unique to America and were tied to the patterns during the COVID-19 pandemic globally. What was not unique, in my opinion, was the Biden Administration response, which, even with what you have noted, improved the conditions tremendously - i.e., things would have been much worse without the Inflation Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. Someone else mentioned the price of gasoline - it is interesting to me that before the election, they were lower than they had been in a long time (I can't be a hypocrite and say that this is because of Biden, because presidents cannot really influence this, and politicians should not campaign on this).

I am going to try to make my main point again, and that is:

1. Do I recognize that many people voted for him?
Yes, more than for Harris, which is why he won. This time, he even appears to be on track to win the popular vote.
2. Do I think that the reasons include current prices of goods, immigration, the economy, racism, and misogyny, but that not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist/misogynist?
Yes.
3. Do I think that people have somehow found Trump's pattern of behavior - including racism, fascist tendencies, convictions related to hush money and sexual assaults (this one in civil court), having no idea how to run anything, let alone a country - not disqualifying and more acceptable than whatever issues and transgressions they have found with Harris?
Yes, obviously, he won.
4. Can I have a personal opinion that #3 above is unacceptable, whatever the reasons may be, and be outraged about it?
Yes, 100%.
5. Can I have a personal opinion that the economic and immigration reasons noted in #2 pale in comparison to the threat that he poses to this country and the world and that Harris would address those better anyway?
Yes, 100%.

You seem to think I am making a normative claim. I’m not. Again: I didn’t vote for him and I’m not justifying anything. I am explaining why he won. I’m glad you think I should argue with my students about their fears. Personally I don’t think that’s my job. I wouldn’t be any good at it if it were. I don’t really care about their fears. I’m not a therapist. I’m not a parent. I’m not a clergyman of some kind.

You might consider the possibility that moralism, especially moralistic outrage, is often an obstacle to clear thinking. You can think everyone is evil or foolish, or you can try to understand why people choose differently than you yourself would under similar circumstances. Most of the time, the one is an obstacle to the other.

I think that you may have your opinions on the reasons that he won and that I may have my opinions on the matter, and that's fine. However, even if you did not vote for him, I disagree with you that you are not justifying anything, because you are making all kinds of "normative" statements such as "you are too outraged" and so on. Regarding your students, I noted that you should encourage critical thinking. For example, when they say - "Hey, I don't want to vote for Harris because I will be drafted and sent to Ukraine," I am not suggesting arguing about their fears. Maybe you did this anyway, but my follow up questions would be - "What is your source? Based on the previous experience with this source, has this source proven to provide reliable information?"

As I noted earlier, in my opinion, it is disrespectful to say that stating that misogyny and racism had an impact on the election outcome is a "lazy" argument for justifying Trump's victory when these "principles" are very much embedded in the fabric of this country (stating that you are not sure to what extent they contributed would be more acceptable to me than lazy). And I think that it is especially telling where your sympathies lie in this affair, even if you did not vote for him, when you note that "Harris is notoriously stupid and lazy" based on the info from the DC circles, when she was literally running against the stupidest and laziest person in the entire America, maybe the world (a hyperbole, but not too far off?). And yes, I can use my own eyes and ears to make this determination, it is not even close.

So, given what happened in this election, I am only arguing that I have every right to be outraged that I have to tell my children that our recently elected president is someone who was found liable for sexual abuse, convicted of financial crimes, and someone who has no regard for the democracy and whose mob tried to forcefully topple the government and threatened to hang his vice president. To me, it is perfectly reasonable to be outraged about that.

Having said all this, I am not a sadist, I have children, and I am only hoping that somehow, don't know exactly how, but I am hoping, that after four years, people everywhere are more prosperous, human rights are better than they are today, that all the major wars have ended, that crime rates in this country are down, and that we continue to address climate change. However, his first batch of cabinet appointments has not exactly instilled any confidence that this is what will be happening but let's see (I REALLY TRULY don't want to be telling anyone "told you so" on any of this).