Heartland

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 14:10**

allfear wrote:Eldritch just likes pissing off his fans

Hmmm yeah me too

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 14:25**

Black Biscuit wrote:Was the whole 80s goth thing a media beat-up by hacks trying to create a scene, and sell music rags, or was there some unifying common link between all these acts?

Christ... I was hit by the most overwhelming and somewhat nauceous feeling of deja vu....

Bloody thing came out of nowhere...

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 14:41**

So has anyone else read it yet? I've just read a very irritating interview with the Cocteau Twins. I can deal with bands who don't want to be interviewed, and respect that choice. But bands that claim they don't like publicity, then GIVE an interview, and say absolutely bugger all, or just play games? That's just irritating. Not to mention the rainforests.

(I know what you might say !!! - doesn't Von just play games, or say nothing? Well, yes, but he never claimed to 'not do interviews', and it's generally a response to crap questions or inane interviewers. I don't know what the Twins' excuse was).

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 15:14**

Gottdammerung wrote: in fact he was far happier to deal with the gritty nature of reality and in fact found facing the facts more uplifting..

Not really goth is it... given the serious lack of self pity etc..

See, the angst and misery and self-pity... I don't know, maybe this is where growing up in the age of Nirvana comes in... but to me, the whole gothic culture has never really stood for all that. Well-placed anger and sadness, yes, but only as a reflection of the whole of reality, like Von says. I've always felt that goth as a genre has more scope for tackling the Big Stuff - not just the Big Miserable Stuff, but the Big Stuff That Makes Life Worth Living as well. It's versatile...there's even time for kitsch daftness if you must.
I despise self-pity. When I wear black, it's not so the whole world knows how miserable I am or how terrible I think my life is, I associate it with power and strength and just... impact. Not some shrinking away, lily-livered sentiment.
Like I said, maybe this comes from growing up in the age of grunge, nu-metal and just when I thought it was all over, goddamn EMO

, but goth music's where I go to get away from all that crap. It's not D-I-S-C-O, I know, but there's something a lot less irritating about the negative sentiments that are expressed in goth than those other genres. Kurt Cobain gives it "I hate myself and want to die", and he's the voice of a generation, a genius. If a goth musician did the same, the ridicule would be as great amongst the goth community as the wider musical world.
But if you really think about it, there's not too many goth musicians that would.

Gottdammerung wrote: Plus I blame goths for killing loads of bands... saw Skinny Puppy play in London a couple of months ago and it was goth central... annoying given how un-gothic SP actually are/were...

Well that either means that goths are trying to stick their gothiness onto a poor band they just don't 'get' and suck the life out of them, or maybe goth doesn't have quite so unpleasant and narrow a definition as you think. Like I said, subcultures define their own boundaries, and if their boundaries stretch to encompass a hell of a lot of good music, then maybe said culture isn't so terrible after all.
My only real beef with 'goth' is when it's used as a noun, to describe a person. Like they're a member of some secret society. It suggests that's all a person is - it's almost used to accuse or bind someone, rather than just as an adjective to give you an idea of one of the elements of their music or dress. I know it's kind of inevitable - happens with 'punks' and 'metalheads' and whatnot - but because goth is so generally reviled, it has a special straitjacket quality when it's placed on someone. You can never escape.
And some people never have...

Gottdammerung wrote: (Speaketh the man who wore an orange safety jacket into the Devonshire Arms in London - the biggest goth pub in Camden basically!

Are you *gulp* him???

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 15:29**

Black Biscuit wrote: Ultimately, however, I hope that all will recognize that art and artists are, in the final analysis, logically flawed due to their fondness for speaking in metaphor and riddle when the simplest and most effective way to communicate is literally and with brevity.

Your theory on art has no real relevence as art is generally concerned with emotions and feeling rather than the logical mind. And if people wanted others to communicate with them by being literal and brief (read, simplistic) I imagine the arts would be a floundering thing. They're not.

And your idea of communication through being simplistic is flawed. The most effective method of communication will vary depending on who it is you're trying to communicate with. For instance, people of higher IQ will have a more difficult time reconciling themselves with simplistic ideas as their brains don't operate in that capacity. Thats's where the old adage about geniuses lacking common sense comes from.

Case in point: If simplicity were embraced, The Sisters would not have such a large fan base, as Vons lyrics are the antithesis of simplicity.

Posted: **19 Oct 2004, 16:05**

Weeeeelllll...I think they're pretty straightforward a lot of the time! Life is short and love is always over in the morning...love is fine, but you can't hold it like a (gun)...sometimes he's direct to a fault. At other times, I wouldn't say he's complex, because the language is clear...but there are multiple possible interpretations...

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 00:04**

CtrlAltDelete wrote: Your theory on art has no real relevence as art is generally concerned with emotions and feeling rather than the logical mind. And if people wanted others to communicate with them by being literal and brief (read, simplistic) I imagine the arts would be a floundering thing. They're not.

And your idea of communication through being simplistic is flawed. The most effective method of communication will vary depending on who it is you're trying to communicate with. For instance, people of higher IQ will have a more difficult time reconciling themselves with simplistic ideas as their brains don't operate in that capacity. Thats's where the old adage about geniuses lacking common sense comes from.

Case in point: If simplicity were embraced, The Sisters would not have such a large fan base, as Vons lyrics are the antithesis of simplicity.

---- "such a large fan base"? Where? Eldo has admitted himself that he is strictly in a second-string market.

I disagree that those with a high IQ have trouble receiving information presented in a simple manner. You've got to be kidding, unless, as is often the case, academics are too caught up in what is going inside their own head.

The arts at the highly-abstracted cutting edge ARE a floundering thing. The biggest thing in musicals has been "American Idol", consisting only of cover versions (no original stuff) and permitting only the most narrow of musical styles. For example, not a rap influence to be found anywhere in that program despite the huge popularity of rap and rap-influenced American music these days. The majority, love 'em or loathe em, do not want to decipher poetry.

But illogic indeed has its influence and its place, otherwise Dubya many not have become Prez.

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 12:45**

In my humble, uninformed opinion, circa 1983 when I was almost vaguley interested in such things, I would've said:

Black Biscuit wrote:ASF or Sex Gang Children

were the epitome of Goth.

Black Biscuit wrote:Cocteau Twins

were a right bunch of pseuds.

Black Biscuit wrote:All About Eve

never even figured in the equation.

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 12:55**

CtrlAltDelete wrote:Your theory on art has no real relevence as art is generally concerned with emotions and feeling rather than the logical mind.

The Enlightenment passed you by then?

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 13:03**

Are you *gulp* him???

Nooo..... just someone with a merry sense of humour, whose g/f at the time was a bit of goth and had goth friends... would often go into said pub on a Sunday afternoon, after going to squat party/illegal rave all weekend, to meet her and usually terrify the residents in the process... (my style: spikey/pierced/urban - my face is beginning to look like a pin cushion.. state of mind (on Sunday..): fragile but incisive..)

The day I got the safety jacket, I'm sure I saw people faint when I put in on when leaving the pub.. it was like a nuclear bomb going off in a darkroom... place was silent... quality..

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 14:08**

Francis wrote:In my humble, uninformed opinion, circa 1983 when I was almost vaguley interested in such things, I would've said:

Black Biscuit wrote:ASF or Sex Gang Children
were the epitome of Goth.

Black Biscuit wrote:Cocteau Twins
were a right bunch of pseuds.

Black Biscuit wrote:All About Eve
never even figured in the equation.

Posted: **20 Oct 2004, 23:50**

Gottdammerung wrote: The day I got the safety jacket, I'm sure I saw people faint when I put in on when leaving the pub.. it was like a nuclear bomb going off in a darkroom... place was silent... quality..

Are you sure no-one had stuck "yeah, I'm gay", or "kick me" on the back of it?

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 09:35**

boudicca wrote:
Gottdammerung wrote: The day I got the safety jacket, I'm sure I saw people faint when I put in on when leaving the pub.. it was like a nuclear bomb going off in a darkroom... place was silent... quality..
Are you sure no-one had stuck "yeah, I'm gay", or "kick me" on the back of it?

Nah, think they'd be too scared... being 6ft4, Scottish and with a few choice facial piercings... I def don't look like the cuddliest of people..!

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 13:25**

Talking about cuddly...

Since I type like a monkey on speed... I'll spend the next few days typing up all the NME stuff sans photos (yes I did by it... yes I am stupid.. next question...)...

Unless I get seriously waylaid (the James Ray gig on Sunday being a prime example..)

Anyone got any ideas re: posting them? Just don't want any heat re: copyrights... though I suppose I could IM them to people if need be..

Answers on a postcard to....

That's if their not already on this site somewhere.... please let me know as I don't have all day to look whilst at work..

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 13:42**

Gottdammerung wrote:Talking about cuddly...

Since I type like a monkey on speed... I'll spend the next few days typing up all the NME stuff sans photos (yes I did by it... yes I am stupid.. next question...)...

Unless I get seriously waylaid (the James Ray gig on Sunday being a prime example..)

Anyone got any ideas re: posting them? Just don't want any heat re: copyrights... though I suppose I could IM them to people if need be..

Answers on a postcard to....

That's if their not already on this site somewhere.... please let me know as I don't have all day to look whilst at work..

if you wanna I can post them in the interviews section of my site: www.lak.co.za/sisters/interviews

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 13:44**

hallucienate wrote:
Gottdammerung wrote:Talking about cuddly...

Since I type like a monkey on speed... I'll spend the next few days typing up all the NME stuff sans photos (yes I did by it... yes I am stupid.. next question...)...

Unless I get seriously waylaid (the James Ray gig on Sunday being a prime example..)

Anyone got any ideas re: posting them? Just don't want any heat re: copyrights... though I suppose I could IM them to people if need be..

Answers on a postcard to....

That's if their not already on this site somewhere.... please let me know as I don't have all day to look whilst at work..
if you wanna I can post them in the interviews section of my site: www.lak.co.za/sisters/interviews

Should be cool then... just need to check they haven't already been typed up... (Don't want to spend ages typing it then find it on the first website I come across..)

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 14:47**

...and no thanks to the NME...

Posted: **21 Oct 2004, 23:58**

Karst wrote:
CtrlAltDelete wrote:Your theory on art has no real relevence as art is generally concerned with emotions and feeling rather than the logical mind.
The Enlightenment passed you by then?

Apparently.

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 00:10**

Black Biscuit wrote:
CtrlAltDelete wrote: Your theory on art has no real relevence as art is generally concerned with emotions and feeling rather than the logical mind. And if people wanted others to communicate with them by being literal and brief (read, simplistic) I imagine the arts would be a floundering thing. They're not.

And your idea of communication through being simplistic is flawed. The most effective method of communication will vary depending on who it is you're trying to communicate with. For instance, people of higher IQ will have a more difficult time reconciling themselves with simplistic ideas as their brains don't operate in that capacity. Thats's where the old adage about geniuses lacking common sense comes from.

Case in point: If simplicity were embraced, The Sisters would not have such a large fan base, as Vons lyrics are the antithesis of simplicity.

---- "such a large fan base"? Where? Eldo has admitted himself that he is strictly in a second-string market.
All you need do is open your eyes and take a look around. Do you even know where you are? I suggest you type The Sisters of Mercy into a search engine and see what pops up. Then get back to me.

I disagree that those with a high IQ have trouble receiving information presented in a simple manner. You've got to be kidding, unless, as is often the case, academics are too caught up in what is going inside their own head.
It's not really a matter of what you believe. It's scientific fact. Again, another suggestion. Pick up a newspaper sometime. Then get back to me.

The arts at the highly-abstracted cutting edge ARE a floundering
As the wife of an artist, I can tell you that's just not the case. I suggest you pick up an publication concerned with the arts. Then get back to me.

The biggest thing in musicals has been "American Idol", consisting only of cover versions (no original stuff) and permitting only the most narrow of musical styles. For example, not a rap influence to be found anywhere in that program despite the huge popularity of rap and rap-influenced American music these days. The majority, love 'em or loathe em, do not want to decipher poetry.
You're taking one pop phenomenon and making it your entire case. I don't think I need to point out the fault with that.

Brittney Spears is also huge. By your logic I suppose that means alternative musics are floundering.

I suggest you break free of your narrow logical confines

And then get back to me.

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 00:29**

typing "the sisters of mercy forum" would produce better results though

clicky

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 04:34**

Quiff Boy wrote:typing "the sisters of mercy forum" would produce better results though

clicky

Doing my homework for me, eh?

151,ooo results. Yep, I'd call that second string.

Top notch sleuthing skills, QB.

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 09:12**

Quiff Boy wrote:typing "the sisters of mercy forum" would produce better results though

clicky

Only second in the list though? Pah!

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 10:45**

Went to www.googlefight.com to check this out...

Doing the Sisters vs the m*****n is a bit silly because of the different meanings of the search terms.. so...

Andrew Eldritch vs That Guitarist

Result:

Eldritch: 59 900 results

Hussey: 28 600 results

Go figure...

http://www.googlefight.com/cgi-bin/comp ... &langue=us

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 10:58**

markfiend wrote:
Quiff Boy wrote:typing "the sisters of mercy forum" would produce better results though

clicky
Only second in the list though? Pah!

balls! when i looked yesterday we were top!

everyone go to that google page and follow the heartland link - that should improve our weighting

Posted: **22 Oct 2004, 11:09**

Top again now

Heartland

The NME