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Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:00
by andymackem
boudicca wrote:This is something that never ceases to amaze me.
Out of all the murders committed in Britain and America annually, is the a percentage of "goths" involved (especially non-doom-cookie, non-actually-listening-to-black-metal ones) very high? I really doubt it.
It would be an interesting experiment to go through the record collections of a sample of convicted murderers (especially people who have shot someone), and see what's there.
If you ran into gangsta rap again and again, I wouldn't be at all surprised. If you ran into the goddamn Sisters, I would.

I think it is a case of the guilty white media not wanting to offend the "black people's music". Which is pretty patronising, I'd say.

Don't start Goldie Lookin' Chain on me now! :wink: :innocent:
Though there is a difference between most murders and the type of shoot-out that seems to happen in American schools. This kind of seemingly motiveless indiscriminate slaughter scares people far more because they can see it happening to them.

That's why there's a greater interest in the psychology of the perpetrators.

That said, I wouldn't expect to find Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan listening to dark metal or related genres.

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:13
by boudicca
andymackem wrote:Though there is a difference between most murders and the type of shoot-out that seems to happen in American schools. This kind of seemingly motiveless indiscriminate slaughter scares people far more because they can see it happening to them.

That's why there's a greater interest in the psychology of the perpetrators.

That said, I wouldn't expect to find Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan listening to dark metal or related genres.
That is true - it's a specific style of killing isn't it?

Not helped by the media hysteria... there are some kids out there who probably think it's the ultimate ubergoth action now... :roll:

But then, there is a specific type of murder associated with rap music as well (i.e. the "driveby"). You won't get that off a couple of goths. And if you did, I'm sure it would be in a hearse, so you'd see them coming... :wink:
It brings to mind that case just this week, of Laetitia Shakespeare - I believe that was some gang shooting. And I would put money on it that the members of those gangs were right into their "gangsta rap". It would be a funny kind of gangsta who wasn't.

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:26
by andymackem
But the reason Laetitia Shakespeare got all that press coverage is because she was caught in the cross-fire and was an 'innocent victim'. So we can all wring our hands again because it feels better than actually doing something about it.

The assumption is that most people on the receiving ends of drive-bys are involved in gangs, which are in turn involved in drugs. Therefore they are 'guilty victims'. As a result we don't have the same interest in the psychology of the killers, or we think we can ascribe a simple motive and don't start leafing through their record collections.

About four years ago I was sent to report on a fatal stabbing in a pub. Outwardly it was a shocking crime, the type to put fear into anyone's heart and convince you that it wasn't safe to walk the streets at night.

A chap had been sitting in his local, having a quiet pint early in the evening, when someone came in and knifed him. Cue outraged locals.

It later emerged that the victim had only recently been released from prison, where he was doing time for cutting someone's ear off. That someone had sent his oppos around to exact revenge. The whole dispute was about drugs. Cue departure of outraged locals and much tutting about how what goes around comes around.

I wonder what the Iceni listened to before they massacred the Romans? :wink:

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:33
by Quiff Boy
andymackem wrote:I wonder what the Iceni listened to before they massacred the Romans? :wink:
"burn motherfuckers burn"?

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:54
by markfiend
Anyone know enough Latin to tell us what "The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire" is?

Actually, forget that, the Iceni probably wouldn't have spoken much Latin (although I guess their nobility probably could speak it as a second language)

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 15:57
by boudicca
andymackem wrote:I wonder what the Iceni listened to before they massacred the Romans? :wink:
:von:

DUH! :lol:

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 16:05
by Quiff Boy
boudicca wrote:
andymackem wrote:I wonder what the Iceni listened to before they massacred the Romans? :wink:
:von:

DUH! :lol:
"jerusalem" :D

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 17:30
by boudicca
Quiff Boy wrote:
boudicca wrote:
andymackem wrote:I wonder what the Iceni listened to before they massacred the Romans? :wink:
:von:

DUH! :lol:
"jerusalem" :D
I was thinking more along the lines of "Dominion"... :von:

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 17:39
by andymackem
If they were anything like their modern day descendants it would probably be s**t handbag house cheese.

Or a 'whumph, whumph, whumph' coming from the back of a souped-up Vauxhall Corsa.

Surely A Rush and Push and the Land is ours would be far more appropriate, though.

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 21:07
by Deviancy
andymackem wrote:If I'd been old enough to play Doom I'd have found a way of doing that, too. As it happens, by the time Doom was available I had better things to do with my time (not that my parents particularly approved of them either :oops: ) but the principle still stands.
Doom 3 rocks but that's b'sides the point.

My parents didn't allow me to play video games when I was a small child. And I didn't get to play them. How does a small child get enough money to buy an atari and play them anyways? One could say they could go to a friends. I was supervised though so even if I went to a friends their parents were around otherwise I wasnt allowed to go. The same goes for questionable music. If I was always under supervision how could I do so?

But that's childhood and then you have those lovely teenage years. But by the time I was a teenager I guess I was just conditioned to behave to an extent. Once again it comes down to parenting and I'm not here to stroke my parents ego. But they did do damn fine job with making sure I stuck to my guns. I still found a way to do some things I shouldn't have done but by this time I was 17.

It's funny because up until this thread started last night I never really thought about my own parents. But it's like the kids I grew up with were always f**king up and oddly enough a few of them really went on to make major mistakes in their life. They were all a lot more free to do things when they were kids. Then there's me who wasn't and who has pretty much kept his nose clean.

So I have to disagree and say if a parent does things right the kids do have a better chance of being stable.

And for the record they never did the beating thing if I did step out of the line. They just wouldn't allow me to have like my stereo if my grades slipped or they wouldn't allow me to do my bmx stuff.

Parents these days seem a lot more focussed on their own lives. I mean I see it all of the time. They don't devote as much time into their kids lives as they should so therefore they don't see things they may have seen had they been more involved. But these are the types of parents who look to the government to censor things like movies, music and games because they themselves can't devote the time to make sure their kids don't view these things.

I just think it comes down to laziness and those who shouldn't breed.

But everyone has an opinion :)

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 21:58
by andymackem
Funny, we were having a parenting debate before the hackers struck.

I seem to recall I was upsetting half the women on here by having an opinion without having had a child, so I'll keep my counsel for now.

In my defence, I may not have had kids, but I do distinctly remember being one. Relevant experience, IMHO. :wink:

Posted: 22 Mar 2005, 22:04
by Deviancy
Well I'm basing my opinions off of being a child as well. I just don't think I could do as well as my parents did so I highly doubt I'll ever have my own children. I'm also not fond of the idea of raising them in the states. I won't even get into how bad the school system is getting even though it may play into these school shooting situations as well.

These boards are always getting hacked. Like three or four of them were hacked last month and the hacker put up this really goofy image and then quoted the matrix. Oddly enough they're usually minors with to much free time and lack of supervision ;).

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 00:52
by Andy TG
Deviancy wrote:It's the US.. if you wear black you shoot up schools.. if you are black the cops shoot you..
SO by that rational if you (as a person) are Black and you are are into "Goth" - Do you shoot yourself first or do the cops get to pull the trigger?

Sorry - a stupid observation I know - But I am (A little) Pissed! :-)

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 01:09
by Deviancy
Andy TG wrote: Sorry - a stupid observation I know - But I am (A little) Pissed! :-)
Yeah.. me as well which is why I felt inclined to include a few of the issues we've been having out here in California as of late.

I still run across people who act soo surprised when I tell them there are non white goths. Another stereotype I don't like about the genre is the one where some think it's all about the white middle class. The clubs out here actually have a healthy mix.

As far as the kid who did the shooting.

Now they're saying they know of posts he did on a few nazi boards and how he himself liked nazis.

It's giving me a headache...

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 01:11
by Deviancy
Online postings about 'racial purity'
Weise was also found by the St. Paul Pioneer Press newspaper to have posted several comments last year on an online forum frequented by neo-Nazis. He used the pen names Todesengel, German for "angel of death," and "NativeNazi."

"I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations," Weise wrote in one session.

He shared the Nazi goal of racial purity, saying that when he talked in school about that for his own Chippewa tribe, "I get the same old argument which seems to be so common around here. 'We need to mix all the races, to combine all the strengths.'"

"They (teachers) don't openly say that racial purity is wrong," he added, "yet when you speak your mind on the subject you get 'silenced' real quick by the teachers and likeminded school officials."

"When I was growing up, I was taught (like others) that Nazi's were evil and that Hitler was a very evil man," he said in another posting. "Of course, not for a second did I believe this. ... They truly were doing it for the better."

The rest of the article can be found here - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7259823/

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 10:51
by markfiend
Funnily enough, the Guardian article makes no mention of any musical preference Weise had, focussing entirely on his racial motivations.
The Guardian wrote:To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go to http://www.guardian.co.uk

You could hear a girl saying, 'No, Jeff, quit, quit. Leave me alone. What are you doing?'
Nine killings in deadly school rampage of neo-Nazi loner stun Red Lake
Gary Younge in Red Lake and Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Wednesday March 23 2005
The Guardian


On the neo-Nazi websites where the teenage loneraired his admiration for Adolf Hitler's notions of ethnic purity, he was known as Todesengel - German for Angel of Death. Late on Monday, in a secluded Indian reservation in northern Minnesota, he played out those dark fantasies.

Jeff Weise, 16, shot dead his grandfather, five teenagers, a teacher, and two other adults before turning the gun on himself. A dozen others were wounded, with two in a critical condition.

It was the deadliest school shooting since April 20, 1999 when two students at Colorado's Columbine High School killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves.

The scale of the violence overwhelmed the emergency services in the remote northern community, forcing the evacuation of some of the more seriously wounded. "We've never dealt with anything like this before," Sherri Binkeland, spokeswoman for North County Regional Hospital, told reporters.

Even among Indian reservations, Red Lake is a particularly close community, one of only two reservations in America where all lands are held in common.

The tribal government has sole jurisdiction over the community's 850,000 acres, and there are very few non-Indians living among the reserve's 5,100 members. Located in a secluded area of northern Minnesota, the reservation sits remote and desolate amid vast plains of farmland, on the snow-covered banks of the frozen Lower Red Lake.

But yesterday the isolation was abandoned as police officers, federal investigators, counsellors and journalists descended on the reservation in its time of grief.

"There will not be one soul who isn't touched by this tragedy here in Red Lake," Floyd Jourdain, chairman of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians, told a press conference. "It still hasn't sunk in."

At Red Lake High School where the killings took place, Weise was known as a misfit and a loner, the product of a deeply troubled family. His father committed suicide four years ago, and his mother was in a nursing home in Minneapolis more than 200 miles away after suffering brain injuries in a car crash.

Classmates described him yesterday as "weird" and "anti-social". Relatives said he was regularly teased.

But it was unclear yesterday what knowledge his classmates or the authorities in Red Lake had about Jeff Weise's inner life, which he pursued on a number of neo-Nazi websites, according to the St Paul Pioneer press.

In his postings, Weise showed strong identification with Hitler, and ideas of racial supremacy, calling himself Native- Nazi as well as Todesengel.

"I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations," said one of his postings last year.

He vented his impatience with those who did not share his fascination with Hitler, singling out his teachers for rebuke. "The only ones who oppose my views are the teachers at the high school, and a large portion of the student body who think a Nazi is a Klansman, or a White Supremacist thug."

On Monday, that frustration with his teachers and classmates came pouring out in a murderous rampage. But he apparently had another score to settle first - with his grandfather, Darryl Lussier, a known figure on the reservation where he had served as a police officer for three decades.

After shooting dead Lussier and Lussier's companion, Weise stole his grandfather's police-issue bulletproof vest and official car, as well as two handguns and a shotgun, and drove towards the red brick school house, arriving at about 3pm, FBI officials told a press conference yesterday.

Witnesses said that Weise had a grin on his face and waved to fellow students, as he walked along the school corridor, emptying his guns.

He was challenged by an unarmed security guard, and shot him dead before resuming his rampage. "Mr Weise continued to roam through the school firing randomly," the FBI spokesman, Michael Pabman, told the press conference.

Reggie Graves, 14, told AP teachers herded students from one room to another, trying to move away from the sound of the shooting. He said some students crouched under desks. Another student, Ashley Morrison, said she heard shots, then saw the gunman's face peering though a door window of a classroom where she was hiding with several others.

"I can't even count how many gunshots you heard, there was over 20 ... There were people screaming, and they made us get behind the desk," she said.

Armed tribal police soon arrived to confront the teenager, forcing his retreat into a classroom where he shot dead five students before turning his gun on himself.

According to the Associated Press, three of the students were shot in the head at close range. "You could hear a girl saying, 'No, Jeff, quit, quit. Leave me alone. What are you doing?' " one student, Sondra Hegstrom, said.

That remained unclear yesterday, with FBI struggling to piece together a motive for what they believed was a pre-meditated attack.

Some of those clues may eventually be provided by Weise himself, from his involvement with neo-Nazi websites. In a posting last year, he admits that he was questioned by police after a threat against the school in what could have been a possible warning sign.

"By the way, I'm being blamed for a threat on the school I attend because someone said they were going to shoot up the school on 4/20, Hitler's birthday, and just because I claim being a National Socialist, guess whom they've pinned," he wrote in comments posted at 11:41 pm, April 19, 2004.

The newspaper went on to report that Weise was subsequently cleared, and quoted him as saying: "I'm glad for that. I don't much care for jail, I've never been there and I don't plan on it."

For the people on the Red Lake reserve, the killing spree was "the darkest hour in the history of our tribe", said Mr Jourdain. "Our community is devastated by this. We have never seen anything like this in the history of our tribe."

Poverty, strife and few jobs

Red Lake reservation, which is home to about 5,100 Chippewa Indians, has a long and troubled history of poverty, unemployment and internal struggles for control of its 850,000 acres.

For 10 years, unemployment on the reserve, in an isolated part of northern Minnesota, has hovered close to 60%.

Its schools are among the worst in the state; four of five students at Weise's high school lived below the poverty line. Red Lake has tried to earn money from gaming; it established three casinos in an attempt to provide unemployment.

They have not done as well as hoped because of the community's isolation. It is one of two reservations in America which bans private land ownership, and all its land is commonly owned and controlled by the tribal government.

In the 1980s, it was the scene of violent riots after civil rights abuses by the tribal authorities. In the past 10 years, however, a new generation of tribal leaders has been committed to reform.

· Red Lake high school - www.paulbunyan.net/rlschools/hs.htm

· Red Lake Tribal Council - www.redlakenation.org

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 11:00
by Deviancy
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we'll never get the actual story. Every news source seems to be doing something different. It's almost like.. "Ok guys.. a kid shot up his school.. add some fiction and post it"..

It's really not being discussed much on the ol tele out here so it'll swept under the rug uber fast probably.

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 20:42
by smiscandlon
The first line of the Metro's coverage stated that:
A teenage gunman who killed seven people at his school was a misfit loner who usually wore black and was obsessed with Adolf Hitler, it emerged yesterday.
Substituting any other colour for "black" in the above statement highlights just how ridiculous it is.

(Except, perhaps, for turquoise.)

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 21:41
by Deviancy
Substitute it with a nice pastel pink.. It would add excitement to the story..

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 22:10
by James Blast
well, I'm sporting grey tonight

Posted: 23 Mar 2005, 23:24
by boudicca
James Blast wrote:well, I'm sporting grey tonight
That just means you're staid and elderly, but at least you're not homicidal. Look on the bright side! :innocent: :wink:

Posted: 24 Mar 2005, 01:02
by eastmidswhizzkid
you know its a sunny day in tabloid heaven when an ethnic nazi satanist loner dropout steals his law-abiding granpappys six-iron and kingdom-comes all &sundry in the name of boredom!'course,if he'ld of been a jacko fan....

Posted: 24 Mar 2005, 07:49
by hallucienate
eastmidswhizzkid wrote:you know its a sunny day in tabloid heaven when an ethnic nazi satanist loner dropout steals his law-abiding granpappys six-iron and kingdom-comes all &sundry in the name of boredom!'course,if he'ld of been a jacko fan....
:notworthy: :notworthy:

welcome

Posted: 24 Mar 2005, 08:08
by nodubmanshouts
The first line of the Metro's coverage stated that:
Said it once, I'll say it again! Most journalists are pond life trying to fill space on a copy sheet - they'll make up any old crap, or exagerate something/anything to make a headline.

Posted: 24 Mar 2005, 12:26
by andymackem
nodubmanshouts wrote:
The first line of the Metro's coverage stated that:
Said it once, I'll say it again! Most journalists are pond life trying to fill space on a copy sheet - they'll make up any old crap, or exagerate something/anything to make a headline.
Thanks. :wink:

Assuming the basic facts are that he wore black a lot, didn't have many friends, and posted on neo-nazi websites what is the journalist doing wrong?

There is a public interest in why this might have happened, and this background info is a part of trying to piece that together.