Heartland

Scardwel wrote:

Dark wrote:I'd love to actually know how in the remotest way Bury Me Deep is a joke.

Well for starters, I think you should know that Bury Me Deep is not about being buried in a 6' deep hole in the ground after 'kicking the bucket' no matter how goth the title may sound. The song is about sex.
You figure it out!

bugger! you beat me to it! and even pleading celibacy is no excuse dark 'cause i was a virgin when i bought it;perhaps i've ust got a dirty mind!

i agree with ruffers and QB's early points -"goth" was more to do with the scene than the music that goths listened to,which got labelled by proxy.....and labels are a s**t indication of quality or even style of music.the cult were still getting played at goth nights long after they'ld gone stadium-rock.NMA were/are massively popular with goths and their music has never been anything like "goth" .

ruffers wrote:

Dark wrote:............. They claim they ARE goth, and they're not doing it as the legendary "JOKE" dictates. ........

</rant>

(needs more work to be a rant by the way)

So, let's look at these bands who claim the are goth - what do they mean by that?

For the love of god, that's just saying "What is goth?"
So I'll start with "try apocalyptic, magic-related, sexual, perverse (each optional, the more the better) lyrics."

I was going to try and continue, but it's just not worth it for the sheer idiocy because someone's going to say "No it's not, it's..." and by the end of it we'll be none the wiser.

You KNOW what makes goth bands gothic.

Scardwel wrote:

Dark wrote:I'd love to actually know how in the remotest way Bury Me Deep is a joke.

Well for starters, I think you should know that Bury Me Deep is not about being buried in a 6' deep hole in the ground after 'kicking the bucket' no matter how goth the title may sound. The song is about sex.
You figure it out!

I can't see anything sex-related in it aside from the line "Lie beside".
That's like saying Never Land is about death. Absolute s**t.

EMWK wrote:bugger! you beat me to it! and even pleading celibacy is no excuse dark 'cause i was a virgin when i bought it;perhaps i've ust got a dirty mind!

i agree with ruffers and QB's early points -"goth" was more to do with the scene than the music that goths listened to,which got labelled by proxy.....and labels are a s**t indication of quality or even style of music.the cult were still getting played at goth nights long after they'ld gone stadium-rock.NMA were/are massively popular with goths and their music has never been anything like "goth" .

If labels are an indication of s**t quality, what about bands proudly calling themselves "rock and roll", or "punk"?
You need labels to know what bands might interest you. I don't have to (or even do) like any goth band I see, but I'm more likely to look at them if they call themselves "goth" as opposed to "alternative rock".

"apocalyptic, magic-related, sexual, perverse (each optional, the more the better) lyrics"

nah, thats precisely the problem with bad goth

and "bury me deep inside" is a very sexual lyric

I don't see what's wrong with that sort of lyric. Add some mythological references and it sounds fine.

All the supposed "good goth bands" (the same ones who "aren't goth" or something, I'm having trouble keeping up) did their lyrics like that sometimes.

"Add some mythological references and it sounds fine"

or like led zepp

Can't we all just agree to disagree? This is a chicken-and-egg argument, that isn't even on topic. True, I probably come across as hypocritical saying that, but we were originally just asking if there's room for another Sisters-style band...

You're the same person who said the Mish sounded like them on Children.

Saying something's like Led Zeppelin is more likely to be a compliment than anything else.

Someone (I forget who now) said we sound like Christian Death on one song. I don't see how, but I take that as a compliment. A big one.

bauhaus (for example, as they were the most pretentious goff band ever) also sang about the Arts - poetry, theatre, etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauhaus_%28band%29

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin_Artaud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht

and other "arch" goth bands used the most diverse subject matter for their lyrics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Prunes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Gang_Children (incidentally, they were given the name by boy george after he rejected it in favour of calling his band culture club )

and other "batcave" style bands were into silly b-movie stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Sex_Fiend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specimen_%28band%29

and then we have some of the others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Dax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birthd ... %28band%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chameleons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Joke

etc

its the diversity of approach that makes the difference. they werent all singing about the same thing, they didnt all look the same, they didnt all sound the same.



and if you want the modern equivalent, it would appear you have to look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_punk# ... 00s_era.29

The Libertines? Liars? The Vines?

whatever

Dark wrote:You're the same person who said the Mish sounded like them on Children.

Saying something's like Led Zeppelin is more likely to be a compliment than anything else.

and i stand by it. musically led zepp are great. lyrically they are daft. the same can be said about most of "children", its just that i dont cut wayne as much slack for daft lyrics as i do mr plant because he's not as cool

i never said i was supposed to make sense

Dark wrote:Someone (I forget who now) said we sound like Christian Death on one song. I don't see how, but I take that as a compliment. A big one.

I don't know, people shouldn't necessarily try to sound like particular bands. (Tribute bands excepted, natch.) Try and sound like, well, like yourselves. That's not to say that you can't nick bits and pieces from other bands (*cough* Noel Gallagher *cough*)

IIRC I may have said that something you did reminded me of the bassline from Christian Death's This Is Heresy which was indeed meant as a compliment; it's a stonker of a bass riff, Valor's execrable lyrics don't really matter.

If you say "we're going to make goth music", you're unnecessarily limiting yourself though. Just make music. As someone once said "The Sisters do what The Sisters like." Just do what you like, have a laugh, and hope other people like it too.

markfiend wrote:I don't know, people shouldn't necessarily try to sound like particular bands. (Tribute bands excepted, natch.) Try and sound like, well, like yourselves. That's not to say that you can't nick bits and pieces from other bands (*cough* Noel Gallagher *cough*)

IIRC I may have said that something you did reminded me of the bassline from Christian Death's This Is Heresy which was indeed meant as a compliment; it's a stonker of a bass riff, Valor's execrable lyrics don't really matter.

If you say "we're going to make goth music", you're unnecessarily limiting yourself though. Just make music. As someone once said "The Sisters do what The Sisters like." Just do what you like, have a laugh, and hope other people like it too.

Yeah, your one post on the forum, but it was one most appreciated.

We can't really limit ourselves to one sort of music, since different people think we're in different genres. Amusing enough (though I take exception to "dark techno new wave" because it makes us sound like a dance version of The Cure)

@ markfiend: rev'rend!

(where's mr blast when you need him )

Dark wrote:Yeah, your one post on the forum, but it was one most appreciated.

I do keep meaning to come back

markfiend wrote:

Dark wrote:Yeah, your one post on the forum, but it was one most appreciated.

I do keep meaning to come back

I'm sure the sentiment is echoed by Ruffers, Tim Sinister, Quiffy, Black Alice, Nick The Stripper and Smiscandlon. Now all of you, I'm not BERATING you for not posting as much as desired, and I'm not INTENTIONALLY going to send you nail bombs in the post, but..

I'm sure I've posted twice.

Less is more young Dark.

Surely it comes down to the fact that we're all getting old, and there's only so many tricks to be played with a guitar and an attitude?

I keep hearing of the new 'big names' in whatever vaguely alternative/indie/rock genre happens to catch my eye. They usually come with a load of hype hailing them as the new version of someone I like (often the Mary Chain, as it happens).

Then I hear the music, and conclude that if I'd heard it when I was 15 it would be my single most favourite thing ever in the history of everything. Unfortunately, I'm not 15 and I've already got everything the Mary Chain ever released so I don't need the latest imitation very much. But there are lots of 15-year-olds who do.

And so it goes. Even if I am turning into my father.

The down side of this is my detour into Symphonic metal in a bid to find something new to hear.

andymackem wrote:Symphonic metal

You poor soul.



As for the "goth" subject at hand, I don't really give a f**k. Music's music. If I like it fine, if I don't I'll berate those who do. nuff said

I don't go by labels, and I advise you to do the same thing.

andymackem wrote:Symphonic metal

ruffers wrote:I'm sure I've posted twice.

Less is more young Dark.

4 times.

SURE less is more, that's why James Blast has 7000 posts.

Dark wrote:If labels are an indication of s**t quality, what about bands proudly calling themselves "rock and roll", or "punk"?

the same goes with most punk to be honest.contrary to what mclaren woulds have you believe until rotten came along the pistols were just another "pub-rock" outfit with no aspirations to anything other than getting laid and occasionally paid.musically they were rehearsing covers of the who and the faces.most punk-rock bands IMO are s**t,not because they were talentless (though there were plenty of them) but because they were trying to be the pistols.crass who came along slightly after the pistols and who are one of the most political of punk bands got it right in as much as they carried on the original stance of two-fingers up to what had gone before,including the pistols.the buzzcocks although inspired by the anyone-can-do-it approach succeeded in creating their own sound whilst still being punk.bands like all those awful flag-waving oi! monkeys missed the point along with an awful lot of the other dross whose names you see painted on the back of some "postcards" jacket.

Heh. I'm glad someone agrees with my assessment of that tw@t McLaren's "contribution" to punk.

About the only claim to have invented punk with less credibility than McLaren's is Jonathan King's. (Yes, I have honestly seen Jonathan King on TV claim to have invented punk )

Dark wrote:

ruffers wrote:I'm sure I've posted twice.

Less is more young Dark.

4 times.

SURE less is more, that's why James Blast has 7000 posts.

He's made 7000 posts. Most people have read about four of them. Less truly is more.

Dark wrote:

andymackem wrote:Symphonic metal

ruffers wrote:I'm sure I've posted twice.

Less is more young Dark.

4 times.

SURE less is more, that's why James Blast has 7000 posts.

Four? I'll be off to delete a couple then...

I simply wish the term "gothic" could be treated like any other... punk, rock'n'roll, whatever... essentially these words are just adjectives, they are a part of language that is supposed to aid in description and understanding. They're not meant to confuse!

A reviewer can slip the words "punk", "rock", "electro" etc. into an article once or twice and it doesn't seem to BRAND the band in question in quite the same way as the use of the word *whisper it* "gothic". It's as though, if you have a gothic element to your music, the other elements are unimportant, you're a goth band, and you're shoehorned into a very small world, where your records, no matter how good, original or diverse in their influence, will never reach out of.

A large proportion of the music I listen to, in common with many other people here, will never get heard outside this limited world. Because it has this gothic element. In the case of many if not most of these artists, this only accounts for a fraction of their sound, they may sound more electronic, ethereal or what have you. But yet it is the inclusion of the slightest pinch of goth-ness into the mix which defines who will ever get the chance to listen to them. And in some cases it's quite a tragedy - if you stuck some of these bands' music on the radio, people would turn it up and say "hey, who are these guys, they're really good", until you told them that they were from the Forbidden Land of Music Only Goths Listen To.

So I don't know if it's the fault of the artists. Or for that matter the people who listen to them (those who don't run a mile at the use of a simple word). There are plenty modern goth bands out there who are sh!te, usually because that's all they are - A Goth Band, built and defining themselves around their notion of the term. As opposed to a band who makes music, some of which has a gothic element to it.

Fundementally, all that really matters isn't how goth or not-goth someone's music is....

"IS IT ANY GOOD?"

At Mera Luna I was busy to keep a safe distance between myself and the so-called "new goth"- bands.
They either looked like anorectic Manson clones or were sad old chaps, that tried to add a few centimeters to their size by an extravagant hair-do.

canon docre wrote:sad old chaps, that tried to add a few centimeters to their size by an extravagant hair-do.

God knows, that's more than SOME people can manage these days...