Heartland

Why are we suddenly confident that a police force which manages to shoot an innocent man while he doesn't actually hurdle a ticket barrier and dash on to a train, ignoring armed police along the way, wouldn't indulge in a spot of casual looting if the chance arose?

it wouldn't be just them, would it? it would be rather more highly trained army types.

i'd like to think we'd be a bit more organized in the first place. perhaps.

emilystrange wrote:it wouldn't be just them, would it? it would be rather more highly trained army types.

i'd like to think we'd be a bit more organized in the first place. perhaps.

don't see how.

something like that trashes your infrastructure... how can you factor for that? how do you prepare for that? and the sheer size of the u.s. has proven its downfall. you cant micro-manage something like this when it happens on such a large scale...

Do not want to think of it happening here in Holland, we would be goner's anyway...with the dead floating into the rest of Europe directions Germany, Belgium. Would be an European problem but because that includes many countries if it hit England and then us.....that would be a disaster to the world economic situation...

But then again I would be dead or swimming (and would head south) hopefully some boat? could save me and my family...like stated do not want to think of what if.....although these are my thoughts.

Quiff Boy wrote:

emilystrange wrote:it wouldn't be just them, would it? it would be rather more highly trained army types.

i'd like to think we'd be a bit more organized in the first place. perhaps.

don't see how.

something like that trashes your infrastructure... how can you factor for that? how do you prepare for that? and the sheer size of the u.s. has proven its downfall. you cant micro-manage something like this when it happens on such a large scale...

surely there must be SOME contingency planning? especially with all the terrorist attack training that's going on. they knew it was coming. if they can start evacuating, they can start doing something else that's useful too. that area is very vulnerable. surely someone must have thought ahead?

Yeah someone thought ahead. And was ignored because strengthening the levees would cost money. *Edit to add: Here is a National Geographic article clearly predicting the disaster. </Edit>

Incidentally, MB, I don't think you need worry too much; the Dutch flood defences are built for a one-in-ten-thousand flood; New Orleans' levees were built for a one-in-two-hundred, and had had federal funding for their maintenance repeatedly cut.

Yeah, while (to be fair) the sheer size of the U.S. must be a logistical nightmare (the area affected by the disaster was approx. 90,000 square miles--more than twice the size of England), there's no reason why New Orleans should have been ignored by the federal gov't for five days, including by the agencies that exist specifically to respond to disaster/emergency situations, like FEMA. In fact, I think FEMA said they weren't aware of what was happening until Wednesday, despite the mayor of N.O. reportedly placing phone calls to the prez and all points south, and screaming his head off on TV on Thursday, frustrated that he was being roundly ignored.

FYI, about 1500 cops stayed on duty--I saw a news report early Saturday morning featuring the mayor, who said his first priority of the day was to get them out and get them medical help, because there had already been a couple of suicides among them.

I don't think foreign aid is an issue here, Quiff--we don't need it. I'm not saying that out of arrogance, but the fact is, we have the resources and we should be able to get them to N.O. quicker than anything the UK can send us. But the U.S. under the Bush administration has shown how totally unwillng it is to spend money on people in need, in any country including its own, despite its "inward-facing" policies. If this had happened in New York, the financial center of the country, I bet you aid would have been here by Tuesday at the latest.

Of course, the famous snow storm that closed the M11 with its inch of slush demonstrated how well prepared we are for natural disasters.

Think of the way in which, despite planning for the possibility of a chemical/biological terror attack on London, our police arrived at the 7/7 bomb sites not knowing whether chemical weapons had been used.

What's changed since then in the UK? Why should we expect our authorities to manage significantly better in the same circumstances.

markfiend wrote:Yeah someone thought ahead. And was ignored because strengthening the levees would cost money. *Edit to add: Here is a National Geographic article clearly predicting the disaster. </Edit>

Incidentally, MB, I don't think you need worry too much; the Dutch flood defences are built for a one-in-ten-thousand flood; New Orleans' levees were built for a one-in-two-hundred, and had had federal funding for their maintenance repeatedly cut.

At the moment my mind sees hundreds and thousands of dutch people sticking their fingers into dykes.. and knowing our Prime Minister Harry Potter-look-alike....with come on the tube with and probably would pee in his pants...

*Ignoring possible comments to do with the Dutch, fingers, and dykes...

andymackem wrote:Of course, the famous snow storm that closed the M11 with its inch of slush demonstrated how well prepared we are for natural disasters.

Think of the way in which, despite planning for the possibility of a chemical/biological terror attack on London, our police arrived at the 7/7 bomb sites not knowing whether chemical weapons had been used.

What's changed since then in the UK? Why should we expect our authorities to manage significantly better in the same circumstances.

Ah, I remember a few years ago in London a "storm" of about 1 inch left the city in chaos with limited transport. Coming from the Snow Belt, I was like, "What's the fuss? Just kick it out of the way!"

Our problem in the UK is not inward looking, every-man-for-himself policies from the government (although it's debatable I'm sure)... but good old-fashioned British inadequacy.

We have the least extreme weather of almost any country in the world, but can we deal with it when it comes? Can we buggery.

A single flake of snow seems to be enough to plunge our infastructure into utter chaos. We can't take the fcuking heat either...

markfiend wrote:*Ignoring possible comments to do with the Dutch, fingers, and dykes...

However, I'd share Madame Butterfly's concern. Due to global warming (okay, we had that discussion, but anyway) water is coming higher and higher, and I think I remember some program which said it was very well built for extreme floods back 20 to 30 years ago, but not anymore to floods of the future...

And I've been on one of those delta work bridges once, water wasn't that high, but in my opinion it was very close flowing over the doors of the dyke

stiff upper lips, the blitz spirit and self-deprecating humour will see the great british public through anything nature can throw at us.

at least until the tea runs out at which point it'd be every man for himself.

Obviousman wrote:However, I'd share Madame Butterfly's concern. Due to global warming (okay, we had that discussion, but anyway) water is coming higher and higher, and I think I remember some program which said it was very well built for extreme floods back 20 to 30 years ago, but not anymore to floods of the future...

And I've been on one of those delta work bridges once, water wasn't that high, but in my opinion it was very close flowing over the doors of the dyke

I'm just going on what I saw on the news the other night. Some "expert" said that the dykes could take up to a 1-in-10000 event, but the US levees only a 1-in-200.

Comparatively there's a lot more to lose (about half the country IIRC?), so I'd guess that the Dutch government are better at the maintenance.

markfiend wrote: I'm just going on what I saw on the news the other night. Some "expert" said that the dykes could take up to a 1-in-10000 event, but the US levees only a 1-in-200.

Comparatively there's a lot more to lose (about half the country IIRC?), so I'd guess that the Dutch government are better at the maintenance.

Well, I guess what I have seen can fool the eye, it's all said to be very high tech, so... But about maintenance, it's a thing where you can easily cut on in your budget, since it's not that visible right away, but on the long term, well, it obviously can lead to disasters... I think I have seen something on Dutch telly about the budget being lowered for 'Rijkswaterstaat' (the organisation responsible of all the dykes and whatever connected to it) some time ago, but I'm not really sure... MadameB

And last year some dykes have collapsed, luckily rather deep into the country, but IIRC it the dykes were known to be in bad condition, but there just was not enough money...

RicheyJames wrote:stiff upper lips, the blitz spirit and self-deprecating humour will see the great british public through anything nature can throw at us.

at least until the tea runs out at which point it'd be every man for himself.

i bet there will be now.

i wonder if our coastal defences will get any benefit?

andymackem wrote:Think of the way in which, despite planning for the possibility of a chemical/biological terror attack on London, our police arrived at the 7/7 bomb sites not knowing whether chemical weapons had been used.

Suppose that I have written a number between 1 and 10 on the inside of my front door. If, before arriving, you have no idea which number it is, would it be fair to suggest that you would be unable to tackle a basic arithmetic problem?

Seriously, was there a psychic recruitment drive that I missed?

Obviousman wrote:

markfiend wrote: I'm just going on what I saw on the news the other night. Some "expert" said that the dykes could take up to a 1-in-10000 event, but the US levees only a 1-in-200.

Comparatively there's a lot more to lose (about half the country IIRC?), so I'd guess that the Dutch government are better at the maintenance.

Well, I guess what I have seen can fool the eye, it's all said to be very high tech, so... But about maintenance, it's a thing where you can easily cut on in your budget, since it's not that visible right away, but on the long term, well, it obviously can lead to disasters... I think I have seen something on Dutch telly about the budget being lowered for 'Rijkswaterstaat' (the organisation responsible of all the dykes and whatever connected to it) some time ago, but I'm not really sure... MadameB

And last year some dykes have collapsed, luckily rather deep into the country, but IIRC it the dykes were known to be in bad condition, but there just was not enough money...

Absolutely true....Obviousman....and that is just the tip of the ice-berg. One thing that opened my eyes was looking into the history of how Almere was built-up....once sea that they push back and use stand to fill and then start building....Almere is in exsistence for 25 years now and the locals can actually see how the ground is sinking under our feet and then to think that it is happening all around the country.....there is so much water all around us (under sea level). And then you hear on the news and read in the paper's where money is going to and what it is used for and the fact that our Orange Prince is actually managing certain water-affairs....makes you want to look and understand further.....

BUT know for sure if anything happens regarding HL's island.....our dutch little troops will come to the rescue....the dutch are many things but do try and help people in need. This *tiny* country in Europe.

Motz wrote:

andymackem wrote:Think of the way in which, despite planning for the possibility of a chemical/biological terror attack on London, our police arrived at the 7/7 bomb sites not knowing whether chemical weapons had been used.

Suppose that I have written a number between 1 and 10 on the inside of my front door. If, before arriving, you have no idea which number it is, would it be fair to suggest that you would be unable to tackle a basic arithmetic problem?

Seriously, was there a psychic recruitment drive that I missed?

Fair point, nicely made.

But, given the circumstances you don't need to be psychic to conclude that taking chemical protection equipment might a sensible precaution?

I think the psychic recruitment drive was scrapped after it turned out that we couldn't find officers who could identify suicide bombers just because they looked a bit foreign

An interesting theory in today's newspaper about the thin layer of civilisation:

They refered to research at Princeton university on 'follow the leader mentality' and 'doing what others do'... In situations where the top layers like police are gone, and hold us from eg. stealing, normality is very likely to be replaced by doing what most do. If you see someone stealing TVs, you just might join in, even if you have never dreamt of stealing things before...

In the research they refered to, a room started to fill itself with smoke and the test person was surrounded by other persons who were told not to do a single thing. As long as no-one complained, the student did nothing about it, whereas students who were in rooms on their own went out to complain.
It's like falling down in the middle of a very busy street, due to the bystander effect, no-one will act, they'll think someone else will certainly take care of it, but when someone comes to the rescue, all of a sudden lots of people will join in and help as well. The same thing seems to have happened during a major power cut in 1977 in New York, because of drug dealers and other people living in the streets who started looting, people quasi automatically joined in...

Doesn't it terrify you how much you can be influenced by everyone around you?

Obviousman wrote:Doesn't it terrify you how much you can be influenced by everyone around you?

Indeed. An even more terrifying case in point: Germany 1933-45

very true point, Obviousman & Markfiend, brilliantly exemplified in the 2001 movie "Das Experiment" which is based on the 'Stanford Prison Experiment,' conducted in 1971.

markfiend wrote:

Obviousman wrote:Doesn't it terrify you how much you can be influenced by everyone around you?

Indeed. An even more terrifying case in point: Germany 1933-45

Exactly. It's pretty hard to underestimate just how deep those herd instincts run. Of course, so many animals evolve with them because in many cases it helps them survive, but it's one hell of an irony when they end up contributing to the mass slaughter of so many of our own species.

We should always be on the alert... these sorts of experiments help remind us of the potentially very dangerous quirks of human nature...