Heartland

paint it black wrote:don't understand why you ain't mentioned fox. b) he's cool and he's clever

Eh?

RobF wrote:

paint it black wrote:don't understand why you ain't mentioned fox. b) he's cool and he's clever

Eh?

i'm pretending to be tory and if i were, which i may not be, for me,i think he would stand out from the crowd most

*best of a bad bunch* but most sassy and most marketable

I would subscribe to the 'I can see the merits of some of your ploicies and politicians but I ain't never gonna vote for you' camp. Policies and politicians come and go and, as mentioned earlier, when voting for a government my main concern is the accepted tradition of the party and the underlying ethos which will determine how it deals with the unexpected. In my mind, there is a very clear distinction:

Tories = every man for himself
Labour = all for one and one for all
Liberals = comfortably numb

Although I have rejected the faith aspects of my Catholic upbringing, I guess the ‘social justice’ theme of the Jesus allegory has shaped my political alignment. And I’ve always fancied myself as a bit of a D'Artagnan.

RobF wrote:There are several street parties long planned and funded by ex-miners, dockers, and community organisations across the nation for the day she pegs it. I fancy the Tyne-side one me-self. Though the Class-war one in London, planned for Trafalgar Square on the first Saturday post death should be a little more "active".

My personal plan is that the moment I hear the news, I will be out in the streets singing "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" from The Wizard of Oz.

I am not joking. I've already done it once when I found a web-site that appeared to say she had died. (On closer inspection it turned out to be a site selling T-shirts)

markfiend wrote:

RobF wrote:There are several street parties long planned and funded by ex-miners, dockers, and community organisations across the nation for the day she pegs it. I fancy the Tyne-side one me-self. Though the Class-war one in London, planned for Trafalgar Square on the first Saturday post death should be a little more "active".

My personal plan is that the moment I hear the news, I will be out in the streets singing "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" from The Wizard of Oz.

I am not joking. I've already done it once when I found a web-site that appeared to say she had died. (On closer inspection it turned out to be a site selling T-shirts)

Oh you made my day!!! Please get it on tape when that day comes....I'll follow your lead here in Holland wearing one of those T-shirts!

It makes me sad how polarised most of you are. It's that sort of blinkered mindset which makes you ideal for manipulation by someone seeking to create tension, strife and conflict between people. It is a relief that you didn't live in a place like Yougoslavia in the early 90's, where you would be fuel to the fire.

Some Conservative policies are good. Some are not.

Some Conservatives are bright. Others less so.

Some are warm and sympathetic people. Some are not.

Some have good judgement. Others are called Norman Tebbit.

Same goes for Labour and Lib Dems, mutatis mutandis.

Those of you who say you would never vote Conservative, or will celebrate the day Thatcher dies (who did some good things which needed doing, and some of whose policies have been adopted by Labour) should be disenfranchised. But (unfortunately for us) stay in England where at least you can't do much damage.

Master Margarita wrote:[Thatcher] did some good things which needed doing

Yeah. tell that to the dockers, the miners, the steelworkers.

Oh you can't. There aren't any any more.

Marky, where's that great picture you used in that other thread...?

Just read online David Davis has managed to blow his chances away by fumbling a key speech. The front-runner's now Liam Fox, I think. Youth, in the Tory party?

markfiend wrote:

Master Margarita wrote:[Thatcher] did some good things which needed doing

Yeah. tell that to the dockers, the miners, the steelworkers.

Oh you can't. There aren't any any more.

you might as well complain about the crippling effect enclosures had on small landowners in the eighteenth century. it's called progress.

take off the blinkers and you too can enjoy the rich variety of greys between black and white.

True. Bastard enclosures.

It all started to go wrong when people invented agriculture IMO. Get back to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle I say.

Master Margarita wrote:It makes me sad how polarised most of you are. It's that sort of blinkered mindset which makes you ideal for manipulation by someone seeking to create tension, strife and conflict between people. It is a relief that you didn't live in a place like Yougoslavia in the early 90's, where you would be fuel to the fire.

Some Conservative policies are good. Some are not.

Some Conservatives are bright. Others less so.

Some are warm and sympathetic people. Some are not.

Some have good judgement. Others are called Norman Tebbit.

Same goes for Labour and Lib Dems, mutatis mutandis.

Those of you who say you would never vote Conservative, or will celebrate the day Thatcher dies (who did some good things which needed doing, and some of whose policies have been adopted by Labour) should be disenfranchised. But (unfortunately for us) stay in England where at least you can't do much damage.

To suggest that I should be disenfranchised, simply because I believe Thatcher's headstone should take the form of a urinal for "convenience's" sake is somewhat insulting. As I'm not a democrat, I shall choose not to take offence. Once.

RicheyJames wrote:

markfiend wrote:

Master Margarita wrote:[Thatcher] did some good things which needed doing

Yeah. tell that to the dockers, the miners, the steelworkers.

Oh you can't. There aren't any any more.

you might as well complain about the crippling effect enclosures had on small landowners in the eighteenth century. it's called progress.

take off the blinkers and you too can enjoy the rich variety of greys between black and white.

Absolutely true, however it's not the closure of the industries that I object to, it's the way it was done, the utter lack of regeneration funding made available in Scotland, Wales and Yorkshire as a barefaced "Punsihment" for militancy, the use of the police-force as a political weapon, the manipulation of the media and history, and the overarching anti-socialist agenda that drove the closures.

Master Margarita wrote:Those of you who say you would never vote Conservative ... should be disenfranchised.

Thankyou for proving my point.

What exactly were the good things that Thatcher did that needed doing by the way? I'm struggling to think of any.

well for a start she got rid of most of those dirty working class types.

Ah. All is forgiven then.

markfiend wrote:What exactly were the good things that Thatcher did that needed doing by the way? I'm struggling to think of any.

1. Privatised a number of industries (BP, BG, BA) which do operate far more efficiently as listed companies. I don't deny that you can question some of the later privatisations.

2. Took on the unions who were effectively holding the country ransom. Whilst a degree of union representation is something which I think is good, the control which the unions exerted in the lates 70s made no commercial sense, and effectively paralysed the companies and then the nation.

3. Beat the Argies, restoring some pride to the forces.

Personally, I don't warm to Mrs T, but to categorise everything she did as wrong is simplistic. Personally, I don't warm to Tony B, but I think he has done some good things too. Personally, I warm to my dad, but don't think he would have the energy, vision or decisiveness to be PM. Tony B and Mrs T did, and I admire that in both of them.

I was speaking to one of my partners last night. I work at a large law firm, the sort of place that is considered one of the nation's real business success stories, and so where you might think we are all tory voting boris's. I asked him who he would vote for in the tory election. He said he couldn't give a damn. Since the 70s, where there were genuine ideological differences between the parties, he didn't see it made much difference (the chap next to him, who is a school friend of David Cameron obviously had a different view), and I tend to agree with that. I don't see much difference between the parties, and find it laughable that you can find such a distinction between them so as to vehemently declare yourself pro this party or anti that.

Master Margarita wrote: I was speaking to one of my partners last night. I work at a large law firm, the sort of place that is considered one of the nation's real business success stories,

Not meant personally but

....the employers' of those kind of firms all end up in hell...don't they?

MB....gets cloak...

MadameButterfly wrote:

Master Margarita wrote: I was speaking to one of my partners last night. I work at a large law firm, the sort of place that is considered one of the nation's real business success stories,

Not meant personally but

....the employers' of those kind of firms all end up in hell...don't they?

MB....gets cloak...

That's right. We're all really evil and go to hell. Hence my name, my ignorant little flutterby.

Master Margarita wrote:1. Privatised a number of industries (BP, BG, BA) which do operate far more efficiently as listed companies. I don't deny that you can question some of the later privatisations.

Did that really need doing though? Surely it would have been better for the country to have kept those companies in public ownership to keep revenue coming to the exchequer rather than to private shareholders? OK the share sell-offs netted big windfalls but that was one-time-only.

When it comes to it, I doubt that privatisation is the only way they could have been made efficient.

Master Margarita wrote:2. Took on the unions who were effectively holding the country ransom. Whilst a degree of union representation is something which I think is good, the control which the unions exerted in the lates 70s made no commercial sense, and effectively paralysed the companies and then the nation.

Pity she had to destroy the industries the union members worked in too. What's the real benefit of having no company at all over having a company "held ransom" by the unions?

Master Margarita wrote:3. Beat the Argies, restoring some pride to the forces.

I don't really want to argue the Falklands, or you'll think I'm a real nut-job.

Master Margarita wrote:
1. Privatised a number of industries (BP, BG, BA) which do operate far more efficiently as listed companies. I don't deny that you can question some of the later privatisations.

2. Took on the unions who were effectively holding the country ransom. Whilst a degree of union representation is something which I think is good, the control which the unions exerted in the lates 70s made no commercial sense, and effectively paralysed the companies and then the nation.

3. Beat the Argies, restoring some pride to the forces..

1. would it have mattered to the tories even if these hadn't operated more efficiently? using the undeniably questionable later privatisations as examples i would say not. that was never the motive behind privatisation anyway.it was ,of course, money .

2. was it the country they were holding to ransom though ? surely it was the government ,their employers. the fact that the country was inconvenienced by power cuts is no different from the inconvenience of rail or postal strikes. or are you saying that workers should have no recourse to industrial action to get their point across?
even if you think that the unions had gotten too big for their boots, how does that justify the tactic of trying to starve them and their families -whole communities- into submission and kill off the industry?

3. did the forces need any pride restoring? when did they lose it? who did they lose it against? the british armed forces are arguably the most professional in the world, do they need to beat a lesser force at the cost of colleagues' lives just to be able to do their job? once again,you have got the political motive wrong. the falklands conflict was that mainstay of politicians whose popularity looks sketchy coming up to a general election -have a war, get the proles flag-waving and return to office on a wave of patriotic fervour.

Personally I can't see anything redeemable about Thatcher or the ideology of Thatcherism, as carried on to this day by Blair. The working class was totally ravaged and that leads us with many of the problems in society we have now. She claimed there was no such thing as society and created the conditions where people would behave as if that were so.