Heartland

At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

g44fr wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:52 At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

Yes, that would be better than nothing. The band is exceptionally tight and well rehearsed right now as well - it would be a good time to document what they've done.

(Actually, it's kind of amazing that Ben in particular was out on tour with other activities just before this tour and with a few days of rehearsals is basically playing up to 10 new songs a night, note perfectly and with impeccable timing. I'm not much of a judge but he seems to have levelled up as a guitarist to me. Dylan is tight as f**k, but he's mostly playing rhythm and acoustic so it's nowhere near as challenging.)

It's just a shame these songs will never be fully realised. I know it's self indulgent to say that again, here of all places, but there you go - I'm emoting on the internet. It's not a high point.

Having finally had a chance to give them a proper listen, a lot of these new songs sound like sketches rather than fully developed. Collectively this is also the shortest running times for Sisters material I think we've ever seen - a lot are sub-3 minutes which is genuinely suprising from a man who likes his remixes extremely extended to include every nuance of feedback on tape. The best 3 for my money are the longer ones which have a little more dynamic and structure (Black Sail, Genevieve, Here).

I get where Chris was coming from when he was saying the newer material was incomplete - it needed structure, middle 8s etc. I think they're still there as a band - loads of interesting ideas but a lot of these still need studio time to complete them. I wonder how many are based on bits of stuff that Ben and Dylan already had in their back pocket rather than worked up from scratch..

Is She's A Monster the first Sisters song to have an actual bassline since Romeo?

czuczu wrote: ↑18 May 2022, 10:46 Having finally had a chance to give them a proper listen, a lot of these new sound like sketches rather than fully developed.

Yeah having just listened through this morning I would tend to agree.

g44fr wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:52 At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

Nah, a properly made live recording would only emphasize their flaws and let's be honest, they are not a good live act anymore, especially with Andrews gurgly mumbly vocals. Recently watched their live @ Astoria from 2001, the difference is mind blowing. If they wanted a live album, they should have made it back then.

That being said, they seem to be living a great creative episode and the new songs have soooooo much potential. IMO they should go to the studio, make a one more legendary album, tour around the world for the last time and then retire. Maybe Andrew could write a book after that or smth

I don't entirely buy the 'not finished' line.

Listening to the mp3 archive posted in the sharing section I get:

DDOI: it goes Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge(Ben's solo)-Chorus.
I Will Call You: V-C-B(the phone-"line section")-V-C-B(I think those mumbled lyrics are unique?)-V-C
But Genevieve: OK sure this is just 4 minutes of vocal ad-lib, snippets from other songs, and the four-word chorus.
Black Sail: V-V-C-B(Dylan's solo)-C-C-B(Ben's solo)-arguably followed by a brief coda
There's a Door: V-C-V-C-C.
Eyes of Caligula: V-V-C-V-C-B(solo)-C-C
Show Me: V-C-V-B(solo)-C-V, admittedly not typical verse/chorus distinction in this one
When I'm On Fire: C-C-B(includes a solo)-C
Six Ways To Sunday: V
Here: V-V-C-B(includes a longish solo)-C+vocal ad lib
Better Reptile: V-PreChorus-C-V-PC-C-B-C.

Mostly pretty standard pop-rock song layouts here, except for Genevieve which is a more a jam session than a song and Six Ways which seems to be intentionally a sketch.

By comparison, listening to the Blank Canvas FLACs of the older new songs I get:

Crash And Burn: V-C-V-C-B(Slip on the vinyl / Shimmer to shine)-V-C. I reckon this could use a solo after the bridge instead of repeating the first verse.
Will I Dream: V-C-V-C-V-C , I'm not sure that the extra V-C adds much
Summer: V-C-V-C
War On Drugs: V-C-V-C-and a long coda
Still: V-C-V-C
Slept: V-C-?-C. The long 'girls on X' rant could be either several verses or a long bridge section?
Romeo Down: not an easy one to break down but I would call it something like V-V-C-V-V-C-coda
Arms: V-PC-C-V-PC-C, includes a pre-chorus I guess
Come Together: V-C-V-C-(some mumbling that might be intended as a bridge?)-V-C
Susanne: V-C-?-V-C-B-coda. There's a instrumental section after the first chorus that I am not sure what to call? Definitely more developed than the others.

Susanne and Crash&Burn aside, I agree that the 'unfinished' argument does have some weight here. Why did the guitarists get no solos?

I think that
- the new new songs are mostly more developed than the old new songs
- in particular, more solo sections for the guitarists
- they feel lightweight more because of their rather generic "poprock earworm" construction rather any unfinishedness, a thing that is probably intentional

And some people just write songs because they like doing that. If other folk like them, that's nice, if other folk don't, ah well no biggie.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the new songs sound exactly the way they're meant to. I don't think they're 'unfinished' at all, other than those that are intentionally built that way. I'm pretty sure Von could knock out 8 minute dirges to beat the band if he felt like it. He doesn't, and this is what we get. The hard news for some is that you're free to like them, and you're free to not.

They're literally free to listen to as well, so it's not like anyone can complain that they've paid for a record and been shortchanged in some way. These tunes have been written to be watched on Youtube, for better or worse. A LOT more people will watch them in that format then will probably ever see them played live.

It's also worth noting that realistically, we're closer to the end of the story than to the beginning or even the middle. He's not a young man and probably won't be playing gigs in his 80s to a crowd in their 60s and 70s. Or maybe not, who knows? But either way I think the appropriate response by any fan is to be grateful they're doing anything rather than nothing.

(As has been said, Six ways to Sunday is clearly not pretending to be anything other than a snippet.)

Craig Fox wrote: ↑16 May 2022, 16:42 Completely agree.....just spent the last 2 hours with phone playing the videos with laptop on the lyrics ......the latest songs are amazing

I know everything he has said in the past regarding a proper album release. But I never understood how he just stood by and let so many bands steal his style and/or sound and just let them profit instead of releasing new material and showing the younger set who the king was.

Maybe one day... I just gave up holding my breath 20 years ago.

I will give him props. Axl just lead fans on for over a decade when it came to Democracy, at least Andrew was like, "I'm done", so even if he does change his mind it isn't like he was being a tease.

knows something that younger people and at this time many of the olders can't understand or know, which is:
Musicians for thousands of years (many of them even today) manage to gain their living through playing live their music (a) and (b) by selling various things as merchandise
None make his living by selling records, unless they sell them as merchandise in their concerts or a shop they control. I suggest a read into any biographies of classical composers and musicians, you will be surprised to discover that even W.A.Mozart did his living by touring around europe. Actually the only type of revenue those musicians had in the past and we see rarely gained by musicians today is the composing a piece by ordering it by someone (church, kings, nobles, mayors of cities etc.).
never did such order i believe

Being645 wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:03
Anyway, we could start a poll for the best version so far heard of every new song from all of the shows when this tour is over, maybe in chronological order (or maybe not) ... ... starting with the new songs from 2019, i.e. Show Me (and Better Reptile) followed by 2020 B- ut Genevieve, I Will Call You, Black Sail - and finally 2022, so far Don't Drive On Ice, Here, Six Ways To Sunday, When I'm On Fire, Eyes of Caligula and She's A Monster ... ...

https://sisterswiki.org/Current_events#NEW_SONGS

Seconded, that would be a useful exercise

Todashi wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 09:40 I've been listening to the new songs daily for the last few weeks, and love them but last night I put Vision Thing on in the car and it made me a bit sad. Even the title track on the record - which is a musically relatively simple composition - has tonnes of layers and nuances and extra little details to listen to, and then you get Ribbons, which is sonically just gorgeous.

This made me sad because I thought of how dense and immersive the new songs could sound if they were properly recorded and layered up, and we probably won't ever get that. I'd love to hear them produced properly, with multiple guitar tracks, overdubbed vocals, sound effects and everything they need to be coached to their full potential.

The live versions show off the bare bones of the songs - and they're excellent - but that's all they are, the bare bones dressed up with a little background synth and they could sound really really good. I know I'm very far from the first to say it, but it's a real shame.

Listening to the bootlegs feels like squinting through a dirty window at a beautiful painting. You can tell it's good but you can't see it clearly. Frustrating.

Ha yes, my sentiments exactly. Of course, this is a question that's confronted very Sisters fan for 20+ years now. Why no new albums? Isn't making those a band's job? What exactly is Von's objection to recoding studios? Here's my own theory. Back in the day, Andrew famously fell out bitterly with his then record company (EastWest) for reasons that have been entirely clear. The feud dragged on for years, until Von finally escaped his contact by sending EastWest an unreleasable spoiler album ('SSV'). After that, Von simply couldn't get another record deal. None of the majors would sign him because they were concerned he might do to them what he'd done to EastWest. Eventually AE started considering more accommodating Indie labels but just couldn't let go of his conviction that the Sisters were a major label band, so never signed. Time passed. Andrew realised he was still drawing live crowds, still making money that way, so the idea of recording another album was just left in limbo, never resolved one way or the other. He started writing new songs again with changing band members, and performed those live on the continuing tours. More time passed. Innovations like crowdfunding and cheaper, computer-based home recording passed him by because he still saw the music industry in old school, record label terms. More time passed, and suddenly it's 2022

g44fr wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:52 At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

Intriguing idea. If only Von would consider it

The thing is, who is buying albums (CDs, vinyl, etc) any more? Sure I guess everyone on here would buy a copy (and a fair few of us would probably buy multiple copies) but that's what, less than 1000 copies? Eldritch presumably would want a similar recording budget as he had for Floodland; he's mentioned large sums of money he would "need" to make a new record. The fact is that for the budget he wants, to make the record we all want, the world would need to still be buying records at the level of the late 80s, early 90s. And that ain't happening. It's all about streaming these days. And as we all know, streaming makes next-to-no money for the artists. So an album ain't gonna happen either.

The amount of formatting that is needed to chart/playlist for even major bands is off the scale. Most pre-orders are set up to include multiple copies (including cassettes, ffs), and signing is essential for even stadium headliners. Cos without that week 1 splash, every release just disappears. And the sales targets to chart etc. are a tiny, tiny fraction of what they used to be.

But he could easily break even due to the change in recording methods. New music is essentially merch and brand awareness at industry level. And some creative desire on the band side if that itch exists. The modern cottage industry model that most legacy bands live by is almost exactly what MR started as, he knows it well enough...

czuczu wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 15:04But he could easily break even due to the change in recording methods. New music is essentially merch and brand awareness at industry level.

Exactly this! Simply release the new music as a marketing tool where for example all direct download earnings is a bonus, then charge more from promoters, play bigger venues and fewer gigs. This will most likely be the biggest monetary advantage of releasing something.

One thing missing from the new songs which I'd love to hear on a recorded version is singing the high notes. They're mostly spoken/growled live but that sisters trademark of increasing intensity is missing. The desperation in his voice, screeching and howling often makes the song (end of Ribbons, Vision Thing or Logic for example). He can still do it when required just not every night as we all know. Show Me is too restrained, or When I'm On Fire screeched and reverbed at the howling edge where it belongs.

Just ignore the streaming revenue and flog boutique/luxury limited editions and box sets from your own online store and merch stand - most bands of that era do ok - lots of parallels if you look at the 80s/90s mob who are still working.
Keep all the income rather than a %.

Also, you don't need to howl in a studio, Floodland and VT do have quite quiet vocals.

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 14:18

g44fr wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:52 At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

Intriguing idea. If only Von would consider it

He'd probably reply that he has considered it - and rejected it.

The whole idea of crowdfunding, live albums, even free online releases, has come up in previous interviews, and Von's response has been pretty much consistent that he feels it's not a suitable medium for a Sisters release. Which means that yes, he does see the Sisters as a band that releases physical disks in high street shops with billboards, radio phone-ins, and cardboard novelty displays, like it's 1990 all over again.

That's just an excuse, surely. He's not stupid and must know that's just an impossible hurdle.
The band is cursed with a comfortable ascetic as front man.

mh wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 16:49

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 14:18

g44fr wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 10:52 At least, if Von doesn’t want to produce anything, he could released the songs via « live here ». A very good live album could suits me very well.

Intriguing idea. If only Von would consider it

He'd probably reply that he has considered it - and rejected it.

The whole idea of crowdfunding, live albums, even free online releases, has come up in previous interviews, and Von's response has been pretty much consistent that he feels it's not a suitable medium for a Sisters release. Which means that yes, he does see the Sisters as a band that releases physical disks in high street shops with billboards, radio phone-ins, and cardboard novelty displays, like it's 1990 all over again.

Yep, pretty sure it's still the 1990s in his mind

markfiend wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 14:38 The thing is, who is buying albums (CDs, vinyl, etc) any more? Sure I guess everyone on here would buy a copy (and a fair few of us would probably buy multiple copies) but that's what, less than 1000 copies? Eldritch presumably would want a similar recording budget as he had for Floodland; he's mentioned large sums of money he would "need" to make a new record. The fact is that for the budget he wants, to make the record we all want, the world would need to still be buying records at the level of the late 80s, early 90s. And that ain't happening. It's all about streaming these days. And as we all know, streaming makes next-to-no money for the artists. So an album ain't gonna happen either.

Crowdfunding is the answer. Other bands have been very successful raising funding the recording and release of albums that way

czuczu wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 17:02 That's just an excuse, surely. He's not stupid and must know that's just an impossible hurdle.
The band is cursed with a comfortable ascetic as front man.

He's certainly very stubborn. He could find a way round these problems if he really wanted to. I do think recording albums is part of a band's job

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑21 May 2022, 09:46 He's certainly very stubborn.

Maybe he is.

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑21 May 2022, 09:46 He could find a way round these problems if he really wanted to.

True at most. The key in that is the "if he really wanted".

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑21 May 2022, 09:46 recording albums is part of a band's job

It seems that it's not. At least not the main task for a band.

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑21 May 2022, 09:46 recording albums is part of a band's job

It seems that it's not. At least not the main task for a band.
[/quote]

If you look back, there's a lovely AE quote from around the time of the Sisterhood split and settlement, and I'm paraphrasing, "Real bands work in studios"