Heartland

LyanvisAberrant wrote: ↑04 Oct 2023, 10:28

Esoterica wrote: ↑03 Oct 2023, 19:06 Perhaps the reason that new songs don’t get recorded is a combination of past troubles with record labels and also voice (vocal cord) issues?

And sharing writing credits, and the music industry, and releasing an album into this industry climate, and the schedules of the band members, and Vons cats need to be fed by 8pm, and the phase of the moon and stars and everything in between. We get an album when Von feels like making one.

We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

ribbons69 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 02:26 We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to trying to read the tea leaves, but this, really is it. Not much more to say. It's a shame, since most of the three decades worth of songs are very good and would positively shine in the studio.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 02:26 We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

True, but the wild card in the pack is Von himself. We likewise know that he's enough of a contrarian to decide one day that he'll actually go do it, despite all of the above still being true.

Agree with all of the above but the thing I can’t reconcile is this.

Von is an excellent song writer and a fine lyricist. He’s spent his entire life listening to the work of other artists (as well as reading and watching films).

As an artist, he has a fine if unprolific track record - 3 quality albums and some EPs which are cherished by a loyal fan base.

He has 20+ songs of high quality that have been refined live and are well loved. He himself knows they are good.

He has an ego of reasonable proportions.

99% of artists, irrespective of the cost or whether they enjoy the recording process, would get an overwhelming sense of personal satisfaction from putting this content out. It would be their legacy.

He wouldn’t even need to do that much work. The programming has been done. Ben could nail the guitar parts in a few weeks and even produce the damn thing. All Von needs to do is a few vocal takes and serve as executive producer. It’s just so frustrating but here we are.

sultan2075 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 03:15

ribbons69 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 02:26 We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to trying to read the tea leaves, but this, really is it. Not much more to say. It's a shame, since most of the three decades worth of songs are very good and would positively shine in the studio.

Yes, that sums it up. There was time when I believed a new record might happen, but that was a long time ago. I'm reconciled to it never happening now and instead focus on live performances of the new songs

It’s all the teasing that’s at the heart of the issue. Seems like interviewers ask the “new album” question every chance they can get. Newbies to the board may not know all of the whys & wherefores, so thanks for your patience and the background information. What happens is anybody’s guess….

I think it'll happen. I used to think it wouldn't, but lately I've come around again.

Why? Because he's a contrarian and I believe he takes a significant degree of pride in doing what he wants regardless of others. So I think he'll make a record when he feels like there's no expectation on him anymore.

I also think his voice is becoming an increasing issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a refugee from 1985 upset at the lack of pointy boots and cowboy hats - I love the modern incarnation of the band - but I think it's getting harder for him.

I think in a studio he could soar, and make something really good. And I think he would still like to do that, but he doesn't want to feel like he has to, or someone else is making him, or that he has no choice. So he'll wait until it won't make any difference to the live ticket sales, and do it then.

Just my guess.

Todashi wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 08:29 I think it'll happen. I used to think it wouldn't, but lately I've come around again.

Why? Because he's a contrarian and I believe he takes a significant degree of pride in doing what he wants regardless of others. So I think he'll make a record when he feels like there's no expectation on him anymore.

I also think his voice is becoming an increasing issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a refugee from 1985 upset at the lack of pointy boots and cowboy hats - I love the modern incarnation of the band - but I think it's getting harder for him.

I think in a studio he could soar, and make something really good. And I think he would still like to do that, but he doesn't want to feel like he has to, or someone else is making him, or that he has no choice. So he'll wait until it won't make any difference to the live ticket sales, and do it then.

Just my guess.

Definitely agree, and I always felt like Von sings his best when he's not shouting, which he tends to do most of the time during live shows nowadays. I think he could do a killer performance on record without having to raise his voice for an audience (although we can still barley hear it )

Some amazing recording artists basically can't sing live. Bernard Sumner of New Order can't carry a tune live to save his life, but it doesn't really matter because he was able to do it in the studio. I have no doubt whatsoever that in a controlled and quiet environment, Eldritch could easily sing well enough to record the new songs really well.

Proper backing singers and production etc, and the new songs would sound epic. Von has never really been a good singer - not even back when he was charting - but he's always been clever enough to use what he's got and play to his strengths. There's plenty of room for a baritone growl, and I think it's time to do that again.

One further point. I'm listening to Ribbons at full volume here as I type and there's virtually no singing in it at all. It's spoken word with a slight variation in tone - but it's amongst the most accomplished and atmospheric examples of Von as a lyricist and artist. It also has those amazing screams and yelps he used to do, but no longer does. I don't blame him - can't be easy to do that night after night without tearing your throat up.

But in a studio? Ah, all bets are off I'm thinking.

Do we not think though that Dylan's departure will lower the already slim chances of a record, given that he was a major songwriting contributor?

FinnMacCool wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 16:32 Do we not think though that Dylan's departure will lower the already slim chances of a record, given that he was a major songwriting contributor?

Certainly a real possibility considering that Von would have to jump through a ton of loops to work out the song writing credit situation to someone he may not be on good terms with anymore. But as previously stated in this thread he is a contrarian and for some reason that none of us could understand except the man himself this could be the thing that lights a spark under him to get these songs recorded perhaps out of spite. It's been done in the past where Von releases stuff with song writing credits attributed to people he's not on great terms with anymore (marx, gunn, the mish duo).

Personally I was very optimistic when all these new songs came out that at some point they would be recorded and released. Nowadays with whatever is happening with Dylan, and the girls, I am feeling slightly less optimistic. However, as pointed out in other threads it seems like the crew have been adding new instrumentation to these new songs with Dylan's absence. So it may or may not happen still

There were rumours about Dylan needing to sign some kind of NDA post sacking. I'd assume that legal ownership of the songs is likewise wrapped up.

I listen to Tobias' versions of the songs to much actual sisters versions would probably melt me.

Agree with everything you say, except:

Todashi wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 14:55 I have no doubt whatsoever that in a controlled and quiet environment, Eldritch could easily sing well enough to record the new songs really well.

because if he could do that, he could also sound good live - modern mics and sound systems can carry whispers if need be, even with loud music on stage. The mic levels etc is not the problem.

Yggdrasil wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 22:05 Agree with everything you say, except:

Todashi wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 14:55 I have no doubt whatsoever that in a controlled and quiet environment, Eldritch could easily sing well enough to record the new songs really well.

because if he could do that, he could also sound good live - modern mics and sound systems can carry whispers if need be, even with loud music on stage. The mic levels etc is not the problem.

The half-litre of vodka and cranberry might be.

On the other hand, if you keep your ears peeled at a gig, you'll see (hear?) that these days Eldritch sings at a really really low level, more or less at a whisper. There's a certain amount of forcing himself to sing so quietly, and a certain amount of that having an effect on how he sounds, that results in the sound we get onstage. The mic level isn't low, it's actually very high to compensate. Hence distortion, hence wildly fluctuating volume levels and clarity, and hence some songs or some entire nights when you can't even hear him at all.

I'm not trying to say that's a good thing, it just is what it is. However, it does leave ample scope for a different experience in the hypothetical studio.

Well, lets do the hypothetical dane: you can record and mix it whatever you want nowadays, you can put vox so loud and so in from of everyother instrument, noise and sound in the mix that it would be audiable enough to carry the lyrics. If you want.
Meanwhile it been 32 years since last full studio album. It's enough to realize it not gonna happen.

Bartek wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023, 23:27 Well, lets do the hypothetical dane: you can record and mix it whatever you want nowadays, you can put vox so loud and so in from of everyother instrument, noise and sound in the mix that it would be audiable enough to carry the lyrics. If you want.
Meanwhile it been 32 years since last full studio album. It's enough to realize it not gonna happen.

Yep, very hard to argue with that. 32 years is a long time. But things change. First off, if you go back a few years, the idea that they'd add a new guitarist and trot out ten songs or so that were really good and worked well - effectively a fourth album, just performed live rather than recorded - would have seemed very unlikely. For literally decades, people had been saying 'He's scared to put anything out because he's left it so long it couldn't compete with the past etc" And then he did.

And of all the criticisms lobbed at him, I haven't heard many people say the new songs are s**t. They're not, they're really really good. So that's data point one - something very very unlikely has actually already happened. Ergo, it could happen again.

Secondly, this situation will come to an end. There will be a point where ill health, a failing voice and/or band disintegration will make it impossible or undesirable to tour. He's not a young man, and his tour almost fell apart this time. So there is change on the horizon - either Chris C steps back up into guitar when Dave is back, or Dylan returns, or Von says to himself 'it's been a good run, I'll quit now." If that last one happens then that's it. No more Sisters.

But I can also imagine a situation where he thinks to himself, 'okay, if I'm not touring anymore, I'll do an album' to leave a record of the songs, and to steer some residual cash towards the guys like Ben, Chris, Dave and Dylan who don't technically 'own' a part of the sisters, but have kept the band afloat as hired hands for almost 20 years. See where I'm going with this? Now, he might not. But he might.

But in all this the one thing we can be absolutely 100 per cent certain of, is change.

The thing is, do you think he would find it so easy to accept the idea of “no more Sisters” outright? He’s sacrificed a lot for his band ever since roughly 1980. A good 40+ years. Touring? Yes, I agree retirement or semi-retirement from that might be a good idea. A lot of 80s bands have ended extensive touring by now. And it would relieve his band of all of the hassles involved in keeping a tour going. Not to mention all of the NDAs needed to keep gossip mongers at bay. He could always do occasional appearances in Europe. A lot like how he treats interviewing. I thought I read somewhere that he prefers being in the studio, anyway. Then there’s the fashion world and contributing to the work of other artists, too.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 02:26 We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

He cant release a record because he's still under contract (east west, strike, lawsuit.. whatever). Thats the only reason IMO.

There are no other reasons not to relaease anything (over the last thirty years) unless he just could nt. He has a million streams on Spotify every month and therefore a good market. NMA has 150000 pm, they release an album every two years.... and for them it seems worth while. His hands are tied.

GC wrote: ↑07 Oct 2023, 23:06

ribbons69 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023, 02:26 We've been talking about this for thirty years now but it boils down to;
Von really doesn't want to make a record.
Von has no need or incentive to make a record.
Ergo he isn't going to make a record.

If I have a task that is unpleasant that I don't want to do, but also that I don't need to do it, then you can be assured that I'm not going to do it. Why would I?

He cant release a record because he's still under contract (east west, strike, lawsuit.. whatever). Thats the only reason IMO.

There are no other reasons not to relaease anything (over the last thirty years) unless he just could nt. He has a million streams on Spotify every month and therefore a good market. NMA has 150000 pm, they release an album every two years.... and for them it seems worth while. His hands are tied.

"No other reasons"
The reason is that he doesn't want to do it. Why is that so hard for people to contemplate?

Esoterica wrote: ↑07 Oct 2023, 22:23 Not to mention all of the NDAs needed to keep gossip mongers at bay.

Do you have a source for these apochryfal NDA's? What gossip would he be worrying about? He sacked a guitarist? The Sisters are not Metallica or the Rolling Stones, outside in the real world no-one cares about some old rock band from Leeds.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023, 01:34

Esoterica wrote: ↑07 Oct 2023, 22:23 Not to mention all of the NDAs needed to keep gossip mongers at bay.

Do you have a source for these apochryfal NDA's? What gossip would he be worrying about? He sacked a guitarist? The Sisters are not Metallica or the Rolling Stones, outside in the real world no-one cares about some old rock band from Leeds.

Can't let the world know that Von stays young and vigorous by extracting adrenochrome from young and impressionable fans....

Well said! Celebs use NDAs all of the time so that nobody figures out exactly what they eat for breakfast….