Does Britain need an independent nuclear deterrent?

Does exactly what it says on the tin. Some of the nonsense contained herein may be very loosely related to The Sisters of Mercy, but I wouldn't bet your PayPal account on it. In keeping with the internet's general theme nothing written here should be taken as Gospel: over three quarters of it is utter gibberish, and most of the forum's denizens haven't spoken to another human being face-to-face for decades. Don't worry your pretty little heads about it. Above all else, remember this: You don't have to stay forever. I will understand.
DarkAngel
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canon docre wrote: DarkAngel, how many of of those people have you met personally or at least read their psychatric diagnosis?

I have worked with at least 10 card carrying sociopaths or psychopaths as an educator and a counselor - and yes, I was privy to their diagnoses.
canon docre wrote:I must generally refuse to the usage of a (btw outdated) psychatric diagnosis to a certain group of humans (in this case leaders who instigate war through bloodshed) whose psychological details remain unknown.
There are certain defined criteria which define sociopathology or as it is called nowadays Antisocial Personality Disorder (DSM-IV-TR).
To use the term sociopath in this case looks pretty much like kitchen-psychology for me.

It is not outdated I was referring to psychopaths, otherwise known as sociopaths.

General Information
People suffering from the Antisocial Personality Disorder were formerly called "psychopaths" or, more colloquially, "sociopaths". Some scholars, such as Robert Hare, still distinguish psychopathy from mere antisocial behavior.

Characteristics and Traits
Psychopaths regard other people as mere objects to be manipulated - as instruments, tools, or sources of benefits and utility. They have no problem grasping ideas - but find it difficult to perceive other people's ability to conceive of ideas, to have their own needs, emotions, and preferences.

The psychopath rejects other people's rights and his commensurate obligations. The "social contract" and conventional morality do not apply to him. His immediate gratification takes precedence over the needs, preferences, and emotions of even his nearest and dearest.

Psychopaths rationalize their behavior and intellectualize it, showing an utter dysfunction of conscience and the absence of remorse for hurting or defrauding others.

Their (primitive) defence mechanisms are overpowering. They intellectualize their criminal behaviour, view the world - and people in it - as "all good" or "all evil", project their own shortcomings unto others and force others to behave the way they expect them to ("projective identification"). To them, people are mere instruments, or functions. They lack empathy and are very exploitative. In this, they closely resemble narcissists.

The psychopath - especially if s/he also has narcissistic traits - is unable to adapt to society and its norms. Hence the criminal acts, the deceitfulness and identity theft, the use of aliases, the constant lying, and the conning of even his nearest and dearest for gain or pleasure. Psychopaths are unreliable and do not honor their undertakings, obligations, and responsibilities. They rarely hold a job for long or repay their debts.

Psychopaths are irresponsible and never fulfil "contracts" they have signed or agreements, verbal and written, they have made. Psychopaths have no "honour", let alone a "word of honour". They never regret or forget a thing.They are vindictive, remorseless, ruthless, driven, and dangerous.

Always in conflict with authority and frequently on the run, psychopaths possess a limited time horizon and seldom make medium or long term plans. They are impulsive and reckless, aggressive, violent, irritable, and, sometimes, the captives of magical thinking, believing themselves to be immune to the consequences of their own actions.

Thus, psychopaths often end up in jail, having repeatedly flouted social norms and codified laws. Partly to avoid this fate and evade the law and partly to extract material benefits from unsuspecting victims, psychopaths habitually lie, steal others' identities, deceive, use aliases, and con for "personal profit or pleasure" as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual puts it.


Going back to my original challenge Canon, can you can name even one leader who instigated war through bloodshed who was not a sociopath?
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canon docre
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if you worked with these people, you surely know the DSM-IV-TR criteria? Why dont you use them instead for definition?

Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR)
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental and behavioral disorders, defines antisocial personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

- failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
- deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
- impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
- irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
- reckless disregard for safety of self or others
- consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
- lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

can you say for sure that Attila the Hun falls under these criteria? What do you know at all about Attila? I'm sure Bush's wife wouldnt agree, that her hubby "fails to conform to social norms". On the contrary, to obtain a position from where one can instigate wars one needs to adopt to social norms and act accordingly. At least for a certain time.
I suppose for instigating a war to be able "to plan ahaed" would come in handy.

Once again, as you most likely never closely examined the psychopathology of past world-leaders and war starters this whole discussion is a bit pointless.

I see a tendency in your discussion topics, DarkAngel, to just stubbornly repeat your initial statement regardless of any other argumentations. Tim is already the second (after Mark) who lost interest in discussing with you. I'm third.

Btw Hitler is suspected of having suffered from destructive narcissim. of course from psychologists who never even got close to him. Make of it what you want. :wink:
Put their heads on f*cking pikes in front of the venue for all I care.
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Francis
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Don't you people have work to do?
And you know that she's half crazy but that's why you want to be there.
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canon docre
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Francis wrote:Don't you people have work to do?
Too hot to sleep. :wink:
Put their heads on f*cking pikes in front of the venue for all I care.
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9while9
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Francis wrote:Don't you people have work to do?
I do!............ :roll: :lol:

And now my cat must dance......
"An artist is a creature driven by demons. He doesn't know why they choose him and he's usually too busy to wonder why." - William Faulkner

-Me, I'm inspired by my DarkAngel.
DarkAngel
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canon docre wrote:DarkAngel, how many of of those people have you met personally or at least read their psychatric diagnosis?
canon docre wrote:I see a tendency in your discussion topics, DarkAngel, to just stubbornly repeat your initial statement regardless of any other argumentations. Tim is already the second (after Mark) who lost interest in discussing with you. I'm third.
I find it disconcerting and somewhat painful that you ask a question of me and then respond in anger to my response. If you already have preconceived ideas and are not interested in hearing someone elses ideas - it is probably best to avoid engaging them in conversation.
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deadagain
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interesting page with some thoughts on patriotism, US hegemony and war...

http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=674
Is this the place I used to know as Fatherland?
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