Heartland

9while9 wrote:Riddle me this: How many balls out terrorist attacks on America in the last 5 years?

And how many in the previous 50? Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma springs to mind, as does the Atlanta Olympics bombing. Don't remember a "war on terror" after those. If we broaden the scope of "America" to include attacks on US assets overseas, there were plenty before and there have been plenty since.
I live in New York now, I lived here then, had been scheduled to move in to 1WTC in June 01 but with holdups and construction issues the date was moved to September 14. The company lost people, but not people I knew, people I knew worked in there and got out, other friends of friends didn't.

Was Bush's repsonse justified? Did it make sense to go after the bases in Afghanistan? Yes, I believe it did. Did it make sense to go in half-arsed with a plan scribbled on the back of an envelope, and assume that once the Taliban had been ousted then the people would live in peace as opposed to the warring tribal factions that had been the case for the previous 1000 years? Probably not.
Does a war on terror give any government carte blanche to do whatever it pleases, so long as it can be justified to the US as "going after terrorists"? It shouldn't, but it does.
Did it make sense to use "the war on terror" to justify going into Iraq, a country that posed no threat to the US then, on intelligence that was questionable then and has lately been proved to be completely fabricated, on the understanding that ousting Saddam would turn the country into a haven of peace, tranquility, love and flowers? Nope.
Does categorising Syria as part of the "Axis of Evil" make sense when the Syrian security forces put themselves in harm's way to defend US assets overseas? Maybe not - Syria is happy to promote "terrorism" elsewhere (assuming you consider Hizb'Allah to be a terrorist group - the definition is a little too fluid for my mind) but takes a dim view of it in its own back yard.

So did "Nine Eleven" change the world? Yes, it did - it demonstrated that there were hawks in Washington and in London that were spoiling for a fight, and were prepared to use any and every excuse to start one. It demonstrated that Tony Blair, who had come in on a wave of national support, was incapable of thinking without Bush's hand up his arse. It created a Jihadi theme park (Rummy-World, as one cartoonist described it) in Iraq where ne'er-do-wells from all over could go and practice their craft. It made people stop and look every time they saw someone who they thought looked "middle-eastern". It resulted in the deaths of a couple of sikh convenience store owners in Texas, who were beaten to death by rednecks who thought they were muslim, so their lives were changed quite dramatically.
Are we safer today than we were then, as a result of the "war on terror"? Nope, but nor are we in greater danger.

I cannot rationalise flying a plane into an office building. I cannot rationalise planting a bomb on a plane, a bus, or the tube. I cannot rationalise someone running into a crowded cafe and detonating a suicide bomb.
But likewise I cannot rationalise a response to any of these acts that results in the loss of tens of thousands of other innocent lives as the government of the country that has been wronged seeks to exact terrible revenge.

If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Just sayin'.

9while9 wrote:Interesting exercise in Spin you've got going here, Motz.

Spin Definition: twist and turn so as to give an intended interpretation

Talking to brick wall Metaphor.

"No description necessary since you'd not be listening anyway".

I'm not spinning anything, merely applying Kant's categorical imperative to the thought process by which you attacked nick's post.

Motz wrote:
I'm not spinning anything, merely applying Kant's categorical imperative to the thought process by which you attacked nick's post.

Kant's categorical imperative, God give me strength

@ EvilBastard : Amen.

EvilBastard wrote: If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Wow ! Can I use that as a signature ? Pliiiiiize !

EvilBastard wrote: If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Just sayin'.

Well, you dissagree with the people and ask for their extinction.. May I understand that as an order for god to deliver a rock, asap?
( only asking)
Generaly I subscribe what you say. An Army is the wrong means against criminal organisation. It´s like trying to cure cancer or tuberculosis with a hammer.

weebleswobble wrote:

Motz wrote:
I'm not spinning anything, merely applying Kant's categorical imperative to the thought process by which you attacked nick's post.

Kant's categorical imperative, God give me strength

So sue me, it's a fancy way of saying that if you can't apply a rule to everything without it becoming ridiculous, then you can't apply it at all. Requiring intimate empathy with one party in a conflict but not the other, is such an example.

Now do you see why I just called the concept by it's name rather than going to that trouble?

eotunun wrote:May I understand that as an order for god to deliver a rock, asap? ( only asking)

Kind of - whether the rock comes from god or is the natural result of a planet disintegrating somewhere far far away, I'm not particularly fussed

Badlander wrote:

EvilBastard wrote: If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Wow ! Can I use that as a signature ? Pliiiiiize !

Course you can - a small donation to the Evil Bastard Foundation For Research Into Why Giving Someone a Weapon Diminishes Their Capacity For Rational Thought By 99.97% will secure it for you.
Cheques or money orders, in sheep or chickens for preference, given that if we go on like this then livestock bartering is going to become commonplace, to the address at the bottom of your screen.

There's only one thing I don't understand.

The hypocrisy of some people (not here, in general I mean).


UK - Manhattan: 4000 miles.

3000 people killed. Major shock and awe, fists in the air, terrorist act never seen before etc etc.

Five years after, all networks around the Western World spend half their day on 'remember 9-11' stuff. 'sensitive' songs are shunned from radio stations. 1-minute silences are asked even in the Belgian Parliament.

UK - Afghanistan: 3500 miles. UK - Iraq: 2700 miles

Closer at home, physically speaking. Another world, emotionally speaking.

Since the 9-11 attacks:

Approx. 12000 Afghans and 255000 Iraqi's killed. General feeling is one of sympathy for the people, and the militia got waht they deserved.

5 years later: still remembered with a 5-minute news flash in the 7 o'clock news. No big remembrance festival, no speeches, no Band Aid. Of course, band aid would not be enough... The only 1-minute silence they get is when there is a technical malfunction at the News Redaction.

Terrorism is everywhere. Only, that of the Western World is called Retaliation.

IZ.

A fine point, Izzy.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:Terrorism is everywhere. Only, that of the Western World is called Retaliation.

Testify, my brother

EvilBastard wrote: Course you can - a small donation to the Evil Bastard Foundation For Research Into Why Giving Someone a Weapon Diminishes Their Capacity For Rational Thought By 99.97% will secure it for you.

Thanks !

Cheques or money orders, in sheep or chickens for preference, given that if we go on like this then livestock bartering is going to become commonplace, to the address at the bottom of your screen.

We'll see.

@ Izzy :

@ IZ The further your relatives live away from you, the more you like them..

EvilBastard wrote:

9while9 wrote:Riddle me this: How many balls out terrorist attacks on America in the last 5 years?

If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Just sayin'.

Now that's a mouth full.
I think we agree on one thing. > I too wish there was never a need for war.But I fear that this is impossible in the world we live in.

I glad you were not among the dead or injured that day 5 years ago, even if you are an EivlBastard....

I'll pass on the meteor, there are people I love still on the planet.

Motz wrote:

weebleswobble wrote:

Motz wrote:
I'm not spinning anything, merely applying Kant's categorical imperative to the thought process by which you attacked nick's post.

Kant's categorical imperative, God give me strength

So sue me, it's a fancy way of saying that if you can't apply a rule to everything without it becoming ridiculous, then you can't apply it at all. Requiring intimate empathy with one party in a conflict but not the other, is such an example.

Now do you see why I just called the concept by it's name rather than going to that trouble?

Ridiculous > by who's definition? Yours?

Kant's categorical imperative > great stuff to contemplate your belly button with...

I don't see anyone volunteering a more appropriate metric.

I'm gonna stop watching this one, I think my belief and rationale are well known.

An Eye for an Eye, a Spy for a Spy...

Bon chance freunds!

I was teaching in a high school classroom and my daughter was in the middle school. I watched it happen live on TV and wanted so much to get out of that school and take my daughter home, but was not allowed to leave because the school decided it would be best to remain open - even though there was still one plane hijacked and not accounted for. It was so horribble - watching the people suffer - falling out of windows - it went on and on.

Most Americans were shocked something so horrible could happen in our own country. That is why we remember 911 - in hopes that by remembering, we will be more observant, more vigilant, and maybe it will never happen again.

Of course, many of us ask "Why?" and after looking closely at what is really going on, realtized that AlQueida is an enormous drug cartel. Their desire is to sell their heroin all over the world while they hide behind a religion. They are like the Moslem "wolves in sheeps clothing." They recruit their poor and uneducated and send them off to kill themselves.

James Blast wrote:I'm gonna stop watching this one, I think my belief and rationale are well known.

An Eye for an Eye, a Spy for a Spy...

Bon chance freunds!

Automated autonomy
Playing on his mind .....

DarkAngel wrote:Of course, many of us ask "Why?" and after looking closely at what is really going on, realtized that AlQueida is an enormous drug cartel. Their desire is to sell their heroin all over the world while they hide behind a religion. They are like the Moslem "wolves in sheeps clothing." They recruit their poor and uneducated and send them off to kill themselves.

I so don't want to get into this on a public forum, but...

...one of the things that came out in the wake of 9/11 was that in May 01 the Bush administration gave a big wedge of cash to the Taliban (the people who allowed bin Laden to set up shop in Afghanistan) because of their efforts to stamp out the cultivation of opium poppies - growing opium for heroin was against their version of Islam. Historically (pre-Taliban) Afghanistan was run by tribal warlords, who cultivated the poppy to pay for their Nissan Pathfinders and to finance their hit-and-runs on the tribe in the next valley. The price of heroin spiked between 1997 and 2001, because the supply was low. It's now cheaper than it ever has been, because the warlords (call them the Northern Alliance if that makes things easier) are growing the stuff in unprecedented quantities, knowing that the NATO forces won't do anything about it. Your tax dollars at work, folks.

If it was just the poor and the uneducated that were getting roped into performing attacks for them, it would be one thing. But most of these guys are upper/middle class, educated, with college degrees. That's what makes it so galling. One can understand (although one can't condone) why a kid in a Palestinian refugee camp who has nothing, who has never had anything, and who has no future, takes a job from [insert name of whichever bunch of whackjobs is currently in ascendance] to go blow himself up in a pizza joint - his family stands to gain mucho money from sponsors. But there doesn't seem to be anyone asking why a guy with a degree and a bright future does this sort of thing. Maybe when we understand why then we can address the problem slightly more efficiently than the method we're using now.

9while9 wrote:

James Blast wrote:I'm gonna stop watching this one, I think my belief and rationale are well known.

An Eye for an Eye, a Spy for a Spy...

Bon chance freunds!

Automated autonomy
Playing on his mind .....

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,
Vote for me and I'll set you free...

All You Need Is Love......



Love Is all You Need.....

EvilBastard wrote:If, after 10,000-some years of human history, we cannot find a better way of solving our problems than killing people who disagree with us, then that meteor cannot come soon enough.

Tool wrote:Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshîts.
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz I sure could use a vacation from this Silly shît, stupid shît...

9while9 wrote:empathy.

1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

Can't add much to EvilBastards' reply to your reply to my reply I'm afraid, interesting things have been said

To clarify things, I just started this thread in a 'Where were you when JFK was shot' kind of spirit, which seems like an even less influencial fact on people (only one kill) but keeps people thinking still after all these years.

Obviousman wrote: To clarify things, I just started this thread in a 'Where were you when JFK was shot' kind of spirit, which seems like an even less influencial fact on people (only one kill) but keeps people thinking still after all these years.

And where were you when Elvis died ?