Heartland

I think DarkAngel needs a pint or two as well.

Mine's a whiskey.

stefanmoermans wrote:tall (that's me )

Can't beat me

Wodka-Thingy please

DarkAngel wrote:If you are one of their people, you cannot speak out against them - they will kill you.

A lot of their people want to keep the peace with their oppressors - and they will stay quiet just to keep their families alive.

Who are "their people", exactly? Muslims? Pakistanis? Afghans? Humans? Extremists? People who prefer tabby cats over marmalade ones?

DarkAngel wrote:Notoriously, oppressors are extremely manipulative - scapegoating, blameshifitng. Just neutrally observe what they are doing - the constant, brutal human rights violations, the acts of terror, and the threats.

Oh, ok, so "their people" includes the US Government and it's client regimes (Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan, etc.). Glad we got that sorted out.

DarkAngel wrote:This is a global issue - and it needs to be addressed - not just because they are threatening all of us - but because of the daily horror their own people experience. How it needs to be addressed - I am not abolutely sure.

Yes, it needs to be addressed. Clearly addressing it with torture, illegal detention, extraordinary renditions and carpet bombing isn't working (based on 5 years of same, and no appreciable results). How's this for an idea - we stop the methods that don't work while we try to find one that does. An idea out of left field, I know, and you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

I've studied oppression, power, and control issues, and the one constant is that whoever has the power feels threatened by someone who tries to get some for himself (whether that power is gunpowder, the Bomb, or economic). He will try any means at his disposal to prevent someone else from getting the power, and the more he tries the more diligently the other person seeks to gain the power. Witness the British Empire - the more people like Gandhi and Nehru sought to gain independence for India, the harder Britain clamped down, until eventually they partitioned the country and ended up with riots and killings. Someone once said that power is like a raw egg - if you hold onto it too tightly then it will explode all over you. Since 1945 the world power structure has shifted from Europe to the US. What the US is trying to do today is no different from what France, Britain, Germany, China, and Japan have all tried to do in the past - hang on to power. And like everyone else, the US has discovered that it has blown up in their face. Bismarck reckoned that failure to learn from history dooms you to repeat it.

You should check out a book by Chomsky & Hermann called "The Washington Connection & 3rd World Fascism - the Political Economy of Human Rights". It's heavy going, but worth the read. Out of print now, I think, but a good used bookstore or Alibris.com should be able to get it for you. I don't buy Chomsky's ideas outright, but he does bring up some interesting ideas. For someone interested in the nature of power, it should be on the reading list. Also Chomsky's "The Culture of Terrorism". Edward Said's "Orientalism" exposes some unpleasant truths about the West's relationship with Islam.
To understand power, understand the people who've wielded it. AJP Taylor's "Bismarck" and Bullock's "Hitler - A Study in Tyranny" are two very readable books on the subject. Macchiavelli's "The Prince" should also be on your bedside table. A nice thin volume, but his understanding of the nature of power is profound - just ask Henry Kissinger (#4 on my Top Ten List of People To Invite To Dinner).

Ah yes, here we go again: Another American who thinks he's got it all sorted out

I'm not even going to write too much, it's a waste anyway. Might as well talk to the pint before me, it makes more sence and I won't feel the need to have several more afterwards...

Impressive list has been shown here, my my, it must have been a big job to put that one together. Might I suggest you make the same list of your countrymen being killed by handguns in domestic violence? Or in drug related kolls? Or in hunting accidents? Only in the US you can get a ban on plastic toyguns, while you can buy as many guns as you want.

What is the point, you might ask.
There is no point, I will answer. But the other list didn't have any point either, and it didn't prevent you of putting it together

And yes, 9/11 was horrible. I will not deny that. But what frightens me even more is the fact that Osama Bin Laden was until 10 years ago a "very courageous freedom fighter" sponsered by ... yeah... the US in his fight against that other big ennemy, the Russians. I don't know you personally, but if you are the average American: Russia is the big country on top of the map of the world

I already had a lot of conversations with Americans on this subject, and the word that sums it up best is the following: IGNORANCE. You belief what you see on tv, and that's it.

HisWimmNess wrote:But what frightens me even more is the fact that Osama Bin Laden was until 10 years ago a "very courageous freedom fighter" sponsered by ... yeah... the US in his fight against that other big ennemy, the Russians.

Actually I was more shocked to find out he even was a complete failure as a freedom fighter He arrived in Afghanistan when the Russians were already well out of the way and the chief in command of the unit he wanted to subscribe to didn't even agree with his idea to go in pursuit of them. Hence he and his friend were called the 'Brigade of Rediculous soldiers' when they returned to Kabul (?) to hand in their guns

HisWimmNess wrote: Might as well talk to the pint before me, it makes more sence and I won't feel the need to have several more afterwards...

Okay, I admit, THAT was a lie

Obviousman wrote:Hence he and his friend were called the 'Brigade of Rediculous soldiers' when they returned to Kabul (?) to hand in their guns

See what happens? You make fun of the tall guy with the kidney condition and he gets all pissy. He was probably bullied at school, too. Perhaps they called him Shorty-Greasy-Spot-Spot...

Feedback:
I guess you are right with taking the left/right-wing-blatter to the second row. A problem that´s paralized our german government during the past 1 1/2 decades and made problems become allmost unsolvable while the ones to solve them behaved like fans of opposong socer clubs. I guess these twits are the same wherever you go..

That includes the muslim world which faces another problem:
Partially, these countries still live with social structures like europe had in the medieval days, with feudal lords and bondsmen. Lots of the Felach don´t touch a coin throughout their life, as they get everything they ask for from their lord. I was friends with a german woman who maried an iranian doctor and lived in the northwest of Iran for quite a while, over twenty years, if I remember correctly. Her husbands´ family owned a number of villages and farms. She talked quite a lot about her time there, how naively the people would believe in allmost magical powers of the famillies in power for example. The people living under circumstances like these (mind: I talk a about a fraction of them here!) suffer a cultural shock if they are to live with the concept of enlightment or such things all of a sudden.
Then there are the fanatic clerics who find cheap victims in them. We know all of that from european history. That´s what I wanted to say with my reference to the planet Krikkit above.

Globalization forces them to make a jump over centuries of changes, the birthpains of which killed millions of men. And we with our culture are the spaceship impacting in their small world. They can´t handle it, get scared, and the fear turns into aggression.

Then there are the Bin Ladens, who will do allmost anything to be the king of their hill for simple arrogance and vanity. They don´t care for the lives of others as long as the surviving tremble with fear of them. You feed them with fear and a treatment like they were big leaders of a dangerous gang, so more gangsters will shuffle around them to get their share of the fame. To me, Hitler is a speciman of exactly that effect . Former members of leading circles were insulted by the lack of fame they were treated with in post world-war 1 germany, so they shuffled around the twit with the brown shirt and had an icon for their "resistance". For sucking his dick, they got their respect and power back.
You know as I know that muslims and Arabs as such are not dangerous, they are people like you and me.
And on people like you and me a third Reich was built. We have to understand that we have to reach a hand to the everyday people out there and quietly but effectively take out the gangsters before they gain fame and honour from others that are receptive to their likes, George Bush and the contemporary US Government made a statesman out of a gangster by the way they reacted. Others want the same fame.
And if ever anybody should come to violently force me into any religion, I´ll probably make him chew a brick before I kick him to his hell.

eotunun wrote:That includes the muslim world which faces another problem:
Partially, these countries still live with social structures like europe had in the medieval days, with feudal lords and bondsmen.

An important point for those who would simply characterise Islam as a backward, violent, oppressive religion which by its very nature encourages extremism which we in the predominantly Christian west would never indulge in.

You don't even have to delve deep into the mysticism of these two religions to start seeing the common threads which run through both of them. However, one of these religions is the religion of the developed world (which, as a result of it's development and affluence, has become far more secular, democratic and stable). The other is the religion of countries which are in the same stage of development as we were (in some cases) many hundreds of years ago.

Back then, Christianity was oppressive, you could be put to death for any number of forms of heresy, we waged bloody wars in the name of what we believed. We are the same, Dubya.

boudicca wrote: Back then, Christianity was oppressive, you could be put to death for any number of forms of heresy, we waged bloody wars in the name of what we believed. We are the same, Dubya.

B-dush!

Mel Brooks wrote:The inquisition, what a show!
The inquisition, here we go!

I´m quite sure you all heard/read that historics tried to find out what Jesus of Nazareth was doing in his years that are not accounted for in the "holy" scriptures. It came out that he probably travelled with caravanes along the silk roads where he got into contact with buddhist monks and learnt the concept of love, peace and happiness..

[quote="HisWimmNess"]
Impressive list has been shown here, my my, it must have been a big job to put that one together.


any chance I can get a weed of this

And so can we all agree then that oppression is wrong, violence is wrong, and terrorism is wrong? It seems so. I, personally, worry a lot about terrorism (not because I am an American - information for those of you who are sure you know so very much about all Americans) but just because I experienced it. It was only then that I took an interest in Islam - and yes, like Christianity it has a brutal history. I imagine, although I am not as well educated as other heartlanders, that during oppressive years of Christianity, thare were many who stood up and fought against it. This fighting against oppression is the natural result of oppression. And so, there will be many who will stand up against the cruelties of Islamic Extremism - and it is the right thing to do (religion and religiousness aside.)

What I find even more interesting about this message board is the way I have been pidgeonholed because I am open about my nationality. There is a mindset here that if I simply write something that you may not agree with I am met with what seems like raw hatred - and it reads like a lot of it is because I am an American. Believe it or not, I was not aware that there was "Anti'Americanism" in Europe until I joined Heartland! It seems so strange to me as I do not personally experience any Anti-UKism or Anti-Europeanism. I, and many people I know here are very proud of their European heritage and so we celebrate our countries of origin. How deep does the prejudice run against me? How do all of you filter my communication? Am I perceived as an individual or just an amalgamation of all that is part of the prejudice?

DarkAngel wrote:What I find even more interesting about this message board is the way I have been pidgeonholed because I am open about my nationality. There is a mindset here that if I simply write something that you may not agree with I am met with what seems like raw hatred - and it reads like a lot of it is because I am an American. Believe it or not, I was not aware that there was "Anti'Americanism" in Europe until I joined Heartland! It seems so strange to me as I do not personally experience any Anti-UKism or Anti-Europeanism. I, and many people I know here are very proud of their European heritage and so we celebrate our countries of origin. How deep does the prejudice run against me? How do all of you filter my communication? Am I perceived as an individual or just an amalgamation of all that is part of the prejudice?

I think you are percieved very much as an individual here. And whatever reaction you have receieved (or your husband for that matter), is a reaction to you as an individual, certainly not as an American. We have quite a number of Americans here, not least our lady Sinsister, who is a mod, and a good friend of many including myself.

You have not been pigeonholed by us (at least it is not evident from reading these threads). If you are in a pigeonhole, you have gone and sat in it yourself of your own accord. YOU are expressing the views I am taking issue with. No-one is forcing your opinions on you. But we do have a right to disagree.

It is very destructive to view people disagreeing (however vehemently) with your opinions, or criticising the way you express them, as a personal attack on YOU.

And even if people do take issue not only with your views but you as a person, to simply come back playing the "You just hate me 'cos I'm from the US" card, making yourself out to be a victim of our ingrained anti-Americanism, is quite simply a cop-out.
It could perhaps be compared to a Pakistani immigrant who espoused extreme views about the implementation of Shariah law in the UK responding to my opinions on what he was saying with "You just hate me because I was not born in your country". No, I dislike him because he says things which offend me.

I personally find the views you, your husband and sultan have expressed deeply disturbing, and disappointing, as it confirms stereotypes of American attitudes that I would rather see proven wrong. I make no apologies for feeling that way, I have every right, as you do to find my opinions abhorrent.

This kind of argument is the mark of true freedom and democracy. We have to be able to completely disagree without it spiralling into something more. Conflicting opinions leading to personal attacks or feelings of persecution - it is exactly these kinds of feelings which lead people to extremist views. You must have heard radical Islamic clerics justifying their ideas and actions with the assertion that a war is being waged on Islam. In the same way you seem to feel that Heartlanders have persecuted you.

I wish I was suprised by your statement that you were unaware of any anti-americanism in Europe before joining Heartland. It's often commented on in the British media that before 9/11 a lot of Americans didn't even realise how loathed their regime and culture was in some parts of the world, but those events shocked the nation out of that isolationist ignorance. I didn't realise (though I probably should) that even now some American people still don't realise how very isolated the nation is, that you still believe you have strong support from the British and European public.

I don't know what media you have access to, or what it is telling you, but by the sounds of things it's probably very lucky that you have seen this from Heartland. Because contrary to what you appear to think, I don't think you're more likely to find Europeans who will engage in a discussion about these issues in a reasoned manner anywhere else. I think most of the people here are intelligent enough to recognise the dangers of falling into a lazy, uncritical anti-Americanism, not to mention the hypocrisy if we are upset by the generalisations and prejudices of others. But I have to say, the things you have expressed fit exactly the generalisations which lead so many people to such a negative view of Americans. I would like to see you break that mold but...

In short, I believe much of the persecution you feel you face here says rather more about you than anyone else. And what I find most unsettling is the fact that you feel "hated", yet continue to post. In what seems to me to be a deliberately antagonistic manner, accusing us of somehow being out to get you. Combative attitudes (whether the result of paranoia or not) are not very welcome here. I come here because I love the discussions and the people - if you don't I suggest you find somewhere else where you do.
Life's too f*cking short.

weebleswobble wrote:

Is this the programme for Saturday night?

Mine's a Bailey's, actually...

DarkAngel wrote:
What I find even more interesting about this message board is the way I have been pidgeonholed because I am open about my nationality. There is a mindset here that if I simply write something that you may not agree with I am met with what seems like raw hatred - and it reads like a lot of it is because I am an American. Believe it or not, I was not aware that there was "Anti'Americanism" in Europe until I joined Heartland! It

hi angel

nice meeting you Coming from Belgium I must say that there is indeed (also from my side) an anti US / UK feeling but not on an individual level . I always try to judge people on who they are and what they stand for, not on where they come from or the colour have.

the "anti" feeling, speaking for myself is only on a political level, to be more precise your nice Mr. president B who thinks he owns the world. David Bowie must have been thinking of him in the '70s when whe wrote the song "the man who sold the world". The thing that we dislike that much about him is that he gives us the strong feeling that he only wants to take revenge for the blame his father had to take when he needed to "give up" the war in the far east. Next to that he's as conservative as the most hy pope. As far as UK is concerned same thing but then because mr B(lair) is acting like hese a cute little dog that needs to follow his big boss everywhere. Mind you I had a deep respect for mr blair and his ideas when he started but that all fainted away with the years passing.

I know terrorism needs to be banded, but I think you can only do that by taking away the main reasons why terrorism exists, not by figthing it : I think that has been proven during the ages that you can't win from a minority group if they're figthing with their heart.

What ever happened to talking and dialogue. Have we gone back to the pre-historic where we could only howl and figth....

Peace at home, peace in the world

Sorry, but am I the only one here being reminded of "You only hate me because I'm a plump transexual fairy"?

smiscandlon wrote:Sorry, but am I the only one here being reminded of "You only hate me because I'm a plump transexual fairy"?

*cackle*

boudicca wrote:

smiscandlon wrote:Sorry, but am I the only one here being reminded of "You only hate me because I'm a plump transexual fairy"?

*cackle*

Will you pair shooooosh...................she'll/He'll/It'll hear you

boudicca wrote: In short, I believe much of the persecution you feel you face here says rather more about you than anyone else. And what I find most unsettling is the fact that you feel "hated", yet continue to post. In what seems to me to be a deliberately antagonistic manner, accusing us of somehow being out to get you. Combative attitudes (whether the result of paranoia or not) are not very welcome here. I come here because I love the discussions and the people - if you don't I suggest you find somewhere else where you do.
Life's too f*cking short.

And your responses say volumes about you. I have found some Heartlanders to be welcoming and respectful of me and my opinions. You, unfortunately, are not one of them. And so, this is my last and only post addressing you directly.

Mod Hat On

This point is not made towards anyone in particular, rather to everyone in general.

Disagreement with an opinion does not imply disrespect of that opinion, or of the person holding the opinion.

On these more controversial topics, argument to the points of fact and opinion is generally far more productive than name-calling

In other words, play nice please.

Mod Hat Off

markfiend wrote:Mod Hat On

This point is not made towards anyone in particular, rather to everyone in general.

Disagreement with an opinion does not imply disrespect of that opinion, or of the person holding the opinion.

On these more controversial topics, argument to the points of fact and opinion is generally far more productive than name-calling

In other words, play nice please.

Mod Hat Off

cheers mate. Respect

stefanmoermans wrote:

markfiend wrote:Mod Hat On

This point is not made towards anyone in particular, rather to everyone in general.

Disagreement with an opinion does not imply disrespect of that opinion, or of the person holding the opinion.

On these more controversial topics, argument to the points of fact and opinion is generally far more productive than name-calling

In other words, play nice please.

Mod Hat Off

cheers mate. Respect

Yeah, there you go, up the mod´s a**...(<-JOKE!!!!!)
@ Angel

There is a strange sense of "you don´t do like we do, you hate us!"-sense in what many americans say or write elsewhere on the web. Like the "kill all arabs" attitude a number of trolls expressed on youtube. Like the "some germans aren´t nazis" coments I read elsewhwere. I reacted as angry on that as you do here on Boudicca.
You have to face the fact that europe is not part of the united states, and another fact, which is that the media of the united states have tended to claim the US had invented civilisation. Neglecting efforts of others (and thus, their own!). You don´t see what I mean? whatch dicovery channel. Then do a bit of research about what you heard there on the web. Yo´ll find out that a lot of times fact got distorted to "apatriotic" sounds. That´s so ....