Heartland

nowayjose wrote:

psichonaut wrote:it's not a quetion of numbers....but of freedom.
since th Jews started to arrive in Palastine the stopped to be free
that's all

A number of Palestinian Arabs have been removed from their land and relocated. That wasn't legitimate, I think most can agree. However. Events like that have happened all the time during the history of mankind and people generally have adapted. A civilized solution could be, for example, financial recompensation for lost property and human loss. I have never heard of a Sudeten-German suicide bomber exploding his rucksack in a Prague café and I think I never will. It's a matter of dignity and education. The Palestinians are kept poor, uneducated and indoctrinated, and are tools for demagogues like Hamas and formerly the PLO; while those organizations themselves are used by Arab and the Iranian regimes as a lightning rod to distract from their own oppressive politics, poverty and corruption.

That comaprison you make there actually has some weight, I guess.
Having grown up and living in Germany, I know more than enough people who were driven from their homes by WW II.
I was friends with an old lady from the neighbourhood who was born in Danzig and who was in the trecks from former eastern Germany to the safer places. As a four year old she saw the bits of refugees who were torn by grenades, bombs or fighter bomber bullets flying around. One of my own aunts hid under stacks of boddies to escape not so friendly soldiers who were out to kill everyone they found, civilian or soldier, on her way from Silesia.
I count that aunt as a rather radical christian today, yet a one who'd never even think of going to kill a Russian for what some of theirs did to her and the people arond. Like so many Russians who are friendly with us Germans today after having seen what Hitlers troops did in Russia.
That probably is the result of these people not being as doctrined as the Palestinians, or, as Sultan said, having lived in more libertarian environments they simply had a more neutral view on the terrors they experienced.
Still there probably were even greater numbers of these European refugee stories than all Arabians can get together, not only Palestinians, , but no suicide bombers.
Let's not even mention the Polish who were pushed around several times by Russians and Germans.
..or all those other storries history knows. Only Palestinians don't seem to get over it. Many of them were living in Israel, sharing its wealth and having their chances and jewish friends. Then came Jihad.

psichonaut wrote:i agree for most of your thought, but i'd add Jews too keep Palestinians poor, ineducated, isolated, oppressed and without any kind of human dignity.

That bit about the education: I often wonder why there are so very few Arabs that make themselves a name in science. The whole of Arabia is like a big hole in the map of today's sciences. Why is that so? Arabia used to have such a great tradition there, once upon, a long ago.
It seems to me that non-religious education is what Arabs are not too strong at anymore. I wonder what will happen to Saudi Arabia when the oil wells run dry. Will their money suffice to make a future on? See the decay of Germany's ecconomy as example of what happens to a former strong country that doesn take care of providing its people good education. (Yepp, latest studdies showed some improvement, but throughout the recent fifteen years there were alarming results brought up by studdies saying that german education was rather weak, and getting worse. A tipp to you all: Never buy the wreck of a socialistic country, it'll ruin you. )

It's all God's fault.
If he didn't keep having chosen people, and keep choosing different people. Ok maybe not God, but just the people who think they are God's chosen ones....

How to solve the problem?

If you ask Arabs of a certain generation they will tell that there was a time when there was no conflict between Jew and Arab. You could be Arab and Jewish or Christian (many flavours) or Muslim (also several flavours).

When you have European Jews escaping European anti-Semitism (Europe has more than 1000 years history of anti-semitism, Arabs on the other hand are semitic) and deciding to live in the ‘promised land’ then you have a problem because the local inhabitants already live in the ‘promised land’ (see blame God). The Zionists are no strangers to terrorism (see King David Hotel). Also blame the British Empire.

Long term if Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are to live together in peace then they need to be dependant upon each other economically. At present Israel is treating the prisoners of Gaza as less than human (Israel enforces the blockade). That has to stop now. Stop the bombing and start talking to Hamas.

Suleiman wrote: When you have European Jews escaping European anti-Semitism (Europe has more than 1000 years history of anti-semitism, Arabs on the other hand are semitic) and deciding to live in the ‘promised land’ then you have a problem because the local inhabitants already live in the ‘promised land’ (see blame God). The Zionists are no strangers to terrorism (see King David Hotel). Also blame the British Empire.

don't forget that before the WW2 Jews were the richest people around Europe: bank owners, industries....and, important thing, they supported economically the birth of the "third reich"...they got wha they deserved
....And ths kind of "venetta" on Palestinians is the product of blindness of the states that won the war(NATO block and USSR), only to have jews out of their economies and borders, they have now the greatest shame of 50 years of middle-east civil war

Suleiman wrote: When you have European Jews escaping European anti-Semitism (Europe has more than 1000 years history of anti-semitism, Arabs on the other hand are semitic) and deciding to live in the ‘promised land’ then you have a problem because the local inhabitants already live in the ‘promised land’ (see blame God). The Zionists are no strangers to terrorism (see King David Hotel). Also blame the British Empire.

don't forget that before the WW2 Jews were the richest people around Europe: bank owners, industries....and, important thing, they supported economically the birth of the "third reich"...they got wha they deserved
....And ths kind of "vendetta" on Palestinians is the product of blindness of the states that won the war(NATO block and USSR), only to have jews out of their economies and borders, they have now the greatest shame of 50 years of middle-east civil war

Suleiman wrote:Stop the bombing and start talking to Hamas.

talk to terrorists ?

psichonaut wrote:don't forget that before the WW2 Jews were the richest people around Europe: bank owners, industries....and, important thing, they supported economically the birth of the "third reich"...they got wha they deserved

did you read what you just wrote ? you are just a f**king nazi !!!

JeffDub wrote:

Suleiman wrote:Stop the bombing and start talking to Hamas.

talk to terrorists ?

It's the only way - worked in South Africa, Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kenya, India...

JeffDub wrote:

psichonaut wrote:don't forget that before the WW2 Jews were the richest people around Europe: bank owners, industries....and, important thing, they supported economically the birth of the "third reich"...they got wha they deserved

did you read what you just wrote ? you are just a f**king nazi !!!

not nazis here...the buiness they wanted do turned wrong on them

psichonaut wrote:

JeffDub wrote:

psichonaut wrote:don't forget that before the WW2 Jews were the richest people around Europe: bank owners, industries....and, important thing, they supported economically the birth of the "third reich"...they got wha they deserved

did you read what you just wrote ? you are just a f**king nazi !!!

not nazis here...the buiness they wanted do turned wrong on them

this is not a joke

psichonaut wrote: .they got wha they deserved

There's really no other way to interpret that.

sultan2075 wrote:

psichonaut wrote: .they got wha they deserved

There's really no other way to interpret that.

Yepp, marco. This is a very regretable remark. A one that folks who don't know you better will understand like that.

nowayjose wrote:

Suleiman wrote: Both states are as bad as each other.

Don't think there have been that many stonings in Israel, lately...

no just air raids and bulldozing homes.

JeffDub wrote:

Suleiman wrote:Stop the bombing and start talking to Hamas.

talk to terrorists ?

JeffDub I am with you against nazis.
If you were a Palestinian civilian being bombed by the Israeli air force who would you call the terrorist?

Suleiman wrote:

JeffDub wrote:

Suleiman wrote:Stop the bombing and start talking to Hamas.

talk to terrorists ?

JeffDub I am with you against nazis.
If you were a Palestinian civilian being bombed by the Israeli air force who would you call the terrorist?

I understand perfectly your point (and I have to say I have to respect your opinion as you seem a reasonable man). if you were an Israeli civilian getting rockets shot at you every day, you would feel the same. I hope civilized people like us will be able to have a beer one day peacefully together.

one thing I can not stand though is the remark of the italian nazi psichonaut. such a thing has no place here.

JeffDub wrote: such a thing has no place here.

there's no place, but it's only history that the third reich had financial supports by jews bank owners....
....and now we can't agree, but 50 years ago the WW2 winners gave jews Palestina to kick them out of their states, closing their eyes when Palestinian massacre started

psichonaut wrote: .they got wha they deserved

you call this only history as well marco ?

I call you a f**king nazi !

psichonaut wrote:they got wha they deserved

That it so wrong on every level that I am speechless

JeffDub wrote:

psichonaut wrote: .they got wha they deserved

you call this only history as well marco ?

I call you a f**king nazi !

cl me how the F you want and continue to justify who want to make money on the others dead bodies
...justify

JeffDub wrote:if you were an Israeli civilian getting rockets shot at you every day, you would feel the same.

There seems to be a disconnect between the opinions of the Israeli civilian and the Palestinian. Based on the interviews that I have seen with the Israeli man-in-the-street (which is to say, your regular Israeli rather than a recent right-of-returner or religious zealot), they are tired of the missile attacks and want the government to work harder to find a peaceful solution. They pay the price when the government attacks Hamas or Hizb'Allah - it's their homes and schools that get targeted, their cafes that get bombed. By and large they appear to be a pretty moderate bunch - what they want is what everyone else wants - a quiet life, house, job, car, and kids. They even seem to have some sympathies with the average Palestinian civilian.
By contrast, the Palestinian civilian is in a quandry. He wants a quiet life too - house, job, stable economy - but what he sees is the government failing to supply it or any form of social welfare program to support him. He does see Hamas and Hizb'Allah providing food and money to poor people - so it's no great wonder that he sides with the "terrorists" rather than the government. Fatah's great failing is that it hasn't been able to offer any kind of security to the Palestinians.
Then again, it's not a surprise. Israel has continuously made it impossible for Palestine to come close to stable economic conditions. Blockades of ports, economic embargoes, lack of access to markets for Palestian goods and labour, these have all contributed to the problem. The Israeli government talks a good game but then makes it impossible for the Palestinian government to implement the terms of any agreement. Meanwhile the Israeli government builds walls, settlements, and grabs land in flagrant violation of international law, knowing that it is protected from censure by the US government.
Example: Israeli government tells Fatah to keep a lid on Hamas. Fatah says "Fine, but we can't keep a lid on armed extremists if our security services aren't armed." Israel refuses to allows arms into the West Bank. Therefore Fatah can't keep a lid on Hamas. Israel uses this as justification for killing kids who live next to a mosque.

If you keep a population in poverty then they will turn to extreme methods to find solutions to their problems. Whether that's taking money to become suicide bombers, smuggling stuff in from Egypt, or turning to Hamas instead of Fatah - we saw the same behaviour in Northern Ireland in the 70s and 80s.

Neither side can claim the moral highground in this situation, but as Israel is the richer and more powerful player in the game the onus is on it to make greater strides towards peace – it is far more able to do so should it choose to. Alas, there appears to be a lack of political will in the Knesset to make this happen, and until such will exists then we can pretty much resign ourselves to more of the same kind of things we’ve seen over the last couple of days and 30 years.

psichonaut wrote:

JeffDub wrote:

psichonaut wrote: .they got wha they deserved

you call this only history as well marco ?

I call you a f**king nazi !

cl me how the F you want and continue to justify who want to make money on the others dead bodies
...justify

You are making the same generalisations that are the propaganda base of all these unending conflicts all over the world. I would have thought you more informed and intelligent than that. But I suppose the current attitude down your way toward the Roma should have clued me in.

NO ONE deserves what the Jews got from the Nazis - not even the Nazis themselves - although it might have been 'justifiable'. That is not the behaviour of civilised human beings.

And this thread is rapidly approaching a condition that can't be described as 'civil' either

"But I suppose the current attitude down your way toward the Roma should have clued me in."
?? ? ??

psichonaut wrote:"But I suppose the current attitude down your way toward the Roma should have clued me in."
?? ? ??

Not keeping up with your national news, then? I know Sardinia isn't exactly the centre of the Italian universe (unless you're Sardianian, of course ), but the government's attitudes and policies toward the Romani people of late has been sickeningly reminiscent of the same Nazi/Fascist/racist rubbish. There seems to be a serious conservative backlash going on there - although I fully admit it isn't exclusive to your part of the world. It seems to be the knee-jerk reaction everywhere, stoking the fires of xenophobia in order for people to avoid taking responsibility - blame it all on someone else and thereby feel righteous in whatever draconian measures are deemed necessary to solve 'the problem'.

But don't take it personally - I despair of the entire human race

7anthea7 wrote:

psichonaut wrote:"But I suppose the current attitude down your way toward the Roma should have clued me in."
?? ? ??

Not keeping up with your national news, then? I know Sardinia isn't exactly the centre of the Italian universe (unless you're Sardianian, of course ), but the government's attitudes and policies toward the Romani people of late has been sickeningly reminiscent of the same Nazi/Fascist/racist rubbish.

Anthea, it seems you are well informed about me, then you surely know Sardinians are considered B series citizens

psichonaut wrote:Anthea, it seems you are well informed about me, then you surely know Sardinians are considered B series citizens

True enough, although at least they aren't requiring you to be fingerprinted (they can't very well send you back where you came from, since you're already there... ).

I'm a second-class citizen in my own country simply by being an unmarried, childless, non-Christian female (never mind the age factor). Being Scottish on the one aside and Irish on the other, I also carry the ethnic memories of much worse discrimination. Yet I don't despise the English for it.

I'd like to hope that someday humanity will all grow the f**k up and start treating one another in a sane manner, but there's no chance I'll live that long...

7anthea7 wrote:

psichonaut wrote:Anthea, it seems you are well informed about me, then you surely know Sardinians are considered B series citizens

True enough, although at least they aren't requiring you to be fingerprinted (they can't very well send you back where you came from, since you're already there... ).

they only kept us isolated, altought we had the bes italian politicians and two presidents

7anthea7 wrote: I'm a second-class citizen in my own country simply by being an unmarried, childless, non-Christian female (never mind the age factor). Being Scottish on the one aside and Irish on the other, I also carry the ethnic memories of much worse discrimination. Yet I don't despise the English for it.

the same i do for our condition....if you can come to visit Sardinia, you may discover a 50 year ago land

7anthea7 wrote: I'd like to hope that someday humanity will all grow the f**k up and start treating one another in a sane manner, but there's no chance I'll live that long...

agree