Heartland

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They love to make money, but there's an engrained sense that anybody who is rich or "makes it" deserves to be shot down.

You'd hate Scandinavia, and it's Jante Law then. Think yourself special in any way and watch the opprobrium of the masses descend upon thee. Imagine 1950's working-class Northern England's mentality spread across a whole group of nations. Spite exists everywhere, sadly.

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They expect everyone to carry their own weight, but couldn't stomach a poll tax.

Good idea, badly implemented. The "riots" were just the usual suspects sounding off. Most of us think that we should support the less well off, but are annoyed at how it's changed into supporting the feckless as well as the deserving.

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They hate high taxes (in all its forms, such as VAT), but believe in a large number of government services.

Not so sure about that, most people I know complain their heads off at having to pay for things they don't use.

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They want good medicine, but believe in Socialized Medicine.

NHS is like the BBC, been around so long it's become ingrained. It hasn't quite sunk in to the public yet that for the NHS' 90 billion plus budget we could all have private medical insurance.

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They believe in demoacracy, yet still have a, albeit powerless, Royal Family.

Who in theory holds vast powers, yet is restricted by convention. Queenie could get rid of Brown tomorrow, if the risk to the monarchy's future was considered worth it. Can even veto Government legislation. She's in theory what stops any P.M assuming the powers of a dictator. But most just like her for the sake of tradition.
Besides, if we ditched her, all the Crown Estates, castles, jewels, become hers. She'd be the biggest landowner and possibly one of the richest people overnight, and probably even more influential!

nodubmanshouts wrote: (By the way, before any one dissess the Electorial College system, please remember that the UK system is evern worse -- anybody here remember voting out Thatcher? Nope, thats coz nobody did, it was done soley by the MPs).

I'm going to start a campaign against people using the phrase "disses". Unless you're a member of the Bloods or Crips, it's just daft!!=P
Nobody voted in Brown either, don't forget. Not even his own party. Although I admit the idea of the deputy P.M being promoted to the top spot freezes my spine..

DeWinter wrote:I'm going to start a campaign against people using the phrase "disses". Unless you're a member of the Bloods or Crips, it's just daft!!=P

He's obviously been in the US way too long...

DeWinter wrote:

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They expect everyone to carry their own weight, but couldn't stomach a poll tax.

Good idea, badly implemented. The "riots" were just the usual suspects sounding off. Most of us think that we should support the less well off, but are annoyed at how it's changed into supporting the feckless as well as the deserving.

The poll tax was so not a good idea. How is a flat-rate tax for every person in the country a "good idea"? It was the single most grossly unfair idea the Tories came up with (and that's saying something).

And as for the "feckless" there's about three times as much benefit money goes unclaimed as there is money fraudulently claimed. So, you know, it balances out.

DeWinter wrote:

nodubmanshouts wrote: * They want good medicine, but believe in Socialized Medicine.

NHS is like the BBC, been around so long it's become ingrained. It hasn't quite sunk in to the public yet that for the NHS' 90 billion plus budget we could all have private medical insurance.

I'd rather have the NHS thanks. If we started private medical insurance for all, I suspect that pretty quickly you'd be "allowed" to opt out -- and it's a pretty short trip from "allowed" to "encouraged". We'd end up with a disaster like the US system.

In the future our children will f**k us up. Looking at recent studies Unicef and Child Poverty, then Britain is the worst place to raise you children in the Western world. This will of course strenghthen the disgusting chav culture that seems to dominate only Britain.

markfiend wrote: The poll tax was so not a good idea. How is a flat-rate tax for every person in the country a "good idea"? It was the single most grossly unfair idea the Tories came up with (and that's saying something).

And as for the "feckless" there's about three times as much benefit money goes unclaimed as there is money fraudulently claimed. So, you know, it balances out.

I don't quite see the relevance of your point about claimed or unclaimed, but I'm pretty sure the unclaimed money that was taken from me in N.I isn't given back to me.
And do you honestly believe that someone working for a poor wage or someone with a genuine disability isn't more worthy than someone who has made stupid life decisions? Drop out of education, have multiple children before 18 if you like, but why should you expect a hefty amount of my money to enable you to do so?
Flat rate is a great idea. Everyone pays for the same service. If I have to pay more than Person A, I want more services than Person A.
I'm not obliged to carry anyone financially, and I'm willing to bet the only reason you'll ever give for me having to do so is because you believe it's the moral thing to do. Which is dandy, but those are your morals, not mine. You have every right to dispose of your money how you see fit, you have no right at all to dispose of mine.

markfiend wrote: I'd rather have the NHS thanks. If we started private medical insurance for all, I suspect that pretty quickly you'd be "allowed" to opt out -- and it's a pretty short trip from "allowed" to "encouraged". We'd end up with a disaster like the US system.

You are very welcome to it. But give me the right to opt out of it's appalling treatment and financing it. Even the Scandinavians haven't gone down the NHS route. They took one look at the costs and instead settled for public/private.

James Blast wrote:who fecked up usa then?

Sorry, that was me. Won't do it again, promise...

DeWinter wrote:And do you honestly believe that someone working for a poor wage or someone with a genuine disability isn't more worthy than someone who has made stupid life decisions? Drop out of education, have multiple children before 18 if you like, but why should you expect a hefty amount of my money to enable you to do so?
Flat rate is a great idea. Everyone pays for the same service. If I have to pay more than Person A, I want more services than Person A.
I'm not obliged to carry anyone financially, and I'm willing to bet the only reason you'll ever give for me having to do so is because you believe it's the moral thing to do. Which is dandy, but those are your morals, not mine. You have every right to dispose of your money how you see fit, you have no right at all to dispose of mine.

But apparently your morals allow you to decide who is deserving of benefits.

stufarq wrote: But apparently your morals allow you to decide who is deserving of benefits.

When it's my money? Damn skippy.

stufarq wrote:But apparently your morals allow you to decide who is deserving of benefits.

That.

So you've never made a decision you've regretted? You're happy to sit in judgement on everyone who's been less fortunate than you?

Taxation at a flat rate is profoundly unfair. If you can't see that, quite frankly I'm astounded.

What the f*ck do you mean by a "genuine disability" either? Do you seriously think that there are people out there with "fake disabilities"?

Fine, opt out of the NHS, but when your oh-so-special private hospital gives you MRSA and your insurance won't cover you, I'm sure you won't come running to the NHS to bail you out.

DeWinter wrote: NHS is like the BBC, been around so long it's become ingrained. It hasn't quite sunk in to the public yet that for the NHS' 90 billion plus budget we could all have private medical insurance.

You must be stupid to think splitting up the NHS into private companies pushing up their fees. I don't have kids but the benefit I get from universal innoculation is well worth the 4p it costs. Private medical insurance is a huge con- pay in and then see your insurance stopped the momnent they have to cover cancer treatment. For all the money Americans pay in insurance they could benefit from a unversal health system like the NHS that would benefit society as a whole. The NHS deals with outbreaks of infectious diseases a lot better, cheaper and quicker than private insurance ever could. I'm all for deporting anyone who wants to dismantle either or school system or the NHS- see how they cope in the US working extra hours to treat their inevitable stress-related illnesses.
Insurance companies are out to make money, profit is king

If and when anything goes wrong in DeWinter's life concerning sickness or unemployment then please don't expect me to be either sympathetic or supportive.

markfiend wrote:

stufarq wrote:But apparently your morals allow you to decide who is deserving of benefits.

That.

So you've never made a decision you've regretted? You're happy to sit in judgement on everyone who's been less fortunate than you?

Taxation at a flat rate is profoundly unfair. If you can't see that, quite frankly I'm astounded.

What the f*ck do you mean by a "genuine disability" either? Do you seriously think that there are people out there with "fake disabilities"?

Fine, opt out of the NHS, but when your oh-so-special private hospital gives you MRSA and your insurance won't cover you, I'm sure you won't come running to the NHS to bail you out.

Oh yes, many. But I've born the consequences of them. Eaten pasta for two weeks, or got by on tea and toast so I could pay my rent. My fault, my responsibility. At least it kept me thin.
And what do you mean "in judgement"? I thought I made it clear, do what you like with your life, just don't ask me to bankroll it. If you do, then I want a say in it.

Fake disabilities.."I've got a bad back", "Stress", "depression", "M.E", I can think of quite a few that genuine cases are a rarity.

Isn't MRSA that virus that the NHS has the worst record in the whole of Europe on? I'm about thirty times more likely to catch in an NHS hospital, but at least they'll treat it for free? No thank you.

silentNate wrote:

DeWinter wrote: NHS is like the BBC, been around so long it's become ingrained. It hasn't quite sunk in to the public yet that for the NHS' 90 billion plus budget we could all have private medical insurance.

You must be stupid to think splitting up the NHS into private companies pushing up their fees. I don't have kids but the benefit I get from universal innoculation is well worth the 4p it costs. Private medical insurance is a huge con- pay in and then see your insurance stopped the momnent they have to cover cancer treatment. For all the money Americans pay in insurance they could benefit from a unversal health system like the NHS that would benefit society as a whole. The NHS deals with outbreaks of infectious diseases a lot better, cheaper and quicker than private insurance ever could. I'm all for deporting anyone who wants to dismantle either or school system or the NHS- see how they cope in the US working extra hours to treat their inevitable stress-related illnesses.
Insurance companies are out to make money, profit is king

If and when anything goes wrong in DeWinter's life concerning sickness or unemployment then please don't expect me to be either sympathetic or supportive.

I notice you say America, and don't mention pretty much the rest of the globe? The American system is an example of how it can go wrong, why no mention of how it can work well?Most European countries has some kind of private medical insurance scheme, or colossal fees. Incidentally, many of my Polish colleagues return to Poland for medical and dental treatment. They say it's cheaper and far better.
I wouldn't ask for your sympathy. All I ask is that you don't take money from me and let me make my own arrangements for said eventuality. Or if I choose to blow the money on rent boys and coke, let me do it. Just don't tell me you know best how to spend my money and arrange my life for me.

If you think that depression is not a genuinely debilitating illness then you've never known anyone who was depressed.

I'm out. I just have no point of contact here. I just can't comprehend your way of thinking.

markfiend wrote:If you think that depression is not a genuinely debilitating illness then you've never known anyone who was depressed.

I'm out. I just have no point of contact here. I just can't comprehend your way of thinking.

My fiancee has bipolar depression. Has had it for well over ten years, and I've been with her five, so yes, I do know. Incidentally, she doesn't claim benefits, and I pay for the prescriptions.
I agree though, we'll end this. I'm afraid I don't understand yours, either.

OK, fair enough.

And I don't want this to spill over into personal animosity. No hard feelings?

markfiend wrote:OK, fair enough.

And I don't want this to spill over into personal animosity. No hard feelings?

No, none here. =)

DeWinter wrote:All I ask is that you don't take money from me and let me make my own arrangements for said eventuality. Or if I choose to blow the money on rent boys and coke, let me do it. Just don't tell me you know best how to spend my money and arrange my life for me.

If you earn money in this country then you have every obligation to pay taxes to this country which benefit you indirectly- even if it is by supporting our wonderful justice system that keeps criminals off the street and away from mugging and assaulting you whilst you attempt to procur rent boys and Pepsi
Sorry to hear about your fiance- she had my sympathy anyway

markfiend wrote:Fine, opt out of the NHS, but when your oh-so-special private hospital gives you MRSA and your insurance won't cover you, I'm sure you won't come running to the NHS to bail you out.

In the interests of fairness, I have to say that private hospitals have a much lower infection rate than the NHS. 60% lower if memory serves. The rate in Europe is considerably better too.

DeWinter wrote:;]All I ask is that you don't take money from me and let me make my own arrangements for said eventuality.

If you get knocked down in the street and are lying there unconscious and dying, make sure you let us know what "arrangements" you've made - as a theoretical passer-by I'd hate to call 999 and order you an NHS ambulance that you've opted out of paying for.

...

Sort of moving on, so, who f£cked $p Iceland* then? - The people who live there (greedy, selfish etc.), and/or Western Capitalism and/or Richard Dawkins etc.

(* A once very pretty island in the North Atlantic where lots of animals lived quite happily until some folk in long boats and silly hats arrived - aka Vikings ... Also, more recently a Frozen Food store for rich, greedy & selfish Western-Consumer-Capitalist-Types - Not much difference I suppose?!)

<= Well, not totally, as I'm probably a greedy, selfish Western-Capitalist-Type too - 'By Default' I suppose?! (Not easy to 'opt out' of this c21st nonsense eh?!)



Ooh, er, and um, 'hypocrisy' too perhaps?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... -footprint

DeWinter wrote:

markfiend wrote:OK, fair enough.

And I don't want this to spill over into personal animosity. No hard feelings?

No, none here. =)

Cool. Thanks.

markfiend wrote:

DeWinter wrote:

markfiend wrote:OK, fair enough.

And I don't want this to spill over into personal animosity. No hard feelings?

No, none here. =)

Cool. Thanks.

Glad you sorted that one out Gents?!

Yeah, well, to be honest I think I was starting to vent a bit too much spleen.

I'm perfectly happy to have different political viewpoints from other HLers, but I think we can all still be friends even when we disagree.

Edit to add: Call it a moderator warning to myself

More Spleen is no problem (for me anyway!)

I know you have a sharp mind and a sense of humour too Marky
- Long may it remain so, eh?!

Moderation - ?! - That's the one ?!
(but only in moderation here perhaps? - whoops that word again) ...

Dodges Unlimited Inc. wrote: ...

Sort of moving on, so, who f£cked $p Iceland* then?