Heartland

markfiend wrote: Anyhoo, interesting article on the Grauniad:

As a young man Cameron looked out on the social carnage of pit closures and mass unemployment, looked at Margaret Thatcher's government and thought, these are my people. When all the debating is done, that is really all I need to know.

I do hate those on the left who rage against Thatcher when they were barely alive when she was around. Woman's been out for nearly 20 years now. It's like me raging against the "winter of discontent". Fair enough, if you were a pit-worker at nineteen, you've got a grievance.
If you were enjoying your free university education at the time( Abolished by Labour, and a manifesto commitment, to boot. So if you voted for them, you voted to pull the ladder out from those younger than you. Don't forget that little bit of selfishness.), shut up. Finding an axe to grind will not make people like you any the more.
The writer would have been about nineteen when Thatcher got the boot. Studying "Newspaper Journalism"(?).So he can hardly claim to have any kind of first hand experience of said "social carnage".

So you need first-hand experience of social injustice to think it's a bad thing? OK, gotcha.

As for free university education, well, given the commitment to expanding university entry to a greater range of people (which I think we're agreed now hasn't gone as well as hoped; see previous few posts) the will wasn't there to put the funding in place.

In any case, the damage had been started under the Tories: the introduction of student loans, the abolition of fair rent panels, students no longer able to claim benefits during the long vacation, abolition of housing benefit for students, the poll tax... (Admittedly some of these post-dated Thatcher.)

But the point remains; for most people, their political views crystallise in their mid-to-late teens. Cameron is only, what three-and-a-half years older than me? So the background landscape to his political awakening was Thatcher's Britain.

I see that some people might find it in their own best interests to vote Tory but it seems to me that Tory rule can only come at the expense of wider social justice. I can forgive individual Tory voters for that, but campaigners, MPs, leaders?

markfiend wrote:So you need first-hand experience of social injustice to think it's a bad thing? OK, gotcha.

As for free university education, well, given the commitment to expanding university entry to a greater range of people (which I think we're agreed now hasn't gone as well as hoped; see previous few posts) the will wasn't there to put the funding in place.

In any case, the damage had been started under the Tories: the introduction of student loans, the abolition of fair rent panels, students no longer able to claim benefits during the long vacation, abolition of housing benefit for students, the poll tax... (Admittedly some of these post-dated Thatcher.)

But the point remains; for most people, their political views crystallise in their mid-to-late teens. Cameron is only, what three-and-a-half years older than me? So the background landscape to his political awakening was Thatcher's Britain.

I see that some people might find it in their own best interests to vote Tory but it seems to me that Tory rule can only come at the expense of wider social justice. I can forgive individual Tory voters for that, but campaigners, MPs, leaders?

Heh, I do see your point. Like saying I can't criticise Nazi Germany because I wasn't there at the time!
But I dont get how the visceral hatred of Thatcher is justified amongst people who can have no experience of her. She wasn't a foreign oppressor or a dictator. She didn't have people killed. She was a legit elected leader, elected with a good portion of the "working class" vote, for that matter. Nobody ever offers an alternative to what she did with a bankrupt nation that had just been bailed out by the IMF.
I remember what I believed in my teens. Utter crap. I was a Communist for a few years, then drifted into Socialism. That stopped as soon as I started having to work for a living. Clinging on to political beliefs that were relevant decades ago just seems odd to me.

If anything I've got more left-wing as I've got older. I sometimes find it hard to reconcile socialist economic theory with my libertarian leanings (with a small L, gods forbid anyone should lump me in with Ron Paul et al) but I don't think they're fundamentally incompatible.

I think it's just, and fair, that society provides a "safety-net" (both in terms of healthcare and welfare) for the most vulnerable. I believe that everyone has a right to as much education as they need or want, of whatever kind they want. (This is an "in principle" idea; Labour's one-size-fits-all approach trying to send everyone to university is a failure.) I believe that it's criminally wasteful to spend trillions on nuclear weapons when there are people under the poverty line.

The Tories will do the opposite of what my opinion of "the right thing" is in all these cases.

Capitalism has failed*. We have a situation whereby taxpayers have to bail out banks, enriching their multi-millionaire directors when the bank crashes have bankrupted ordinary people. This is Thatcher's legacy, in a very real sense. Lining the pockets of the richest 5% at the expense of the rest of us. Quite frankly, fuck that.

*working under the assumption that this state of affairs wasn't the goal of capitalism, which I doubt.

DeWinter wrote: She wasn't a foreign oppressor or a dictator. She didn't have people killed.

Maybe not in this country but she was partly responsible for a lot that went on in other parts of the World. Saddam wanted her as a defence witness at his trial, I wonder why?

Thatcher was a c**t, her hard-on for Scotland was spectacularly c**tish.

Try out Poll Tax on the jocks? Why not, they didn't vote for me.

weebleswobble wrote:Thatcher was a c**t, her hard-on for Scotland was spectacularly c**tish.

Try out Poll Tax on the jocks? Why not, they didn't vote for me.

Let's f*ck over the Scots, they didn't vote Tory.
Let's f*ck over the miners, they didn't vote Tory.
Let's f*ck over the students, they didn't vote Tory.
Let's f*ck over the nurses, they didn't vote Tory.
Let's f*ck over the teachers, they didn't vote Tory.

ad nauseam

I suppose I'm allowed to say that Gordon Brown was in Blackpool Tower today, and as much as I don't give a sh!t who wins, I really hope its not him, and thats not because I'm from Rochdale, but because he really is not a nice person...

I have just discovered a boy I spent 7 years at primary school is the BNP candidate for North Hykeham. He was never the sharpest knife in the draw.

A quick reminder B4 the election:
The Tories Will f**k Your Dead Grandparents, Rape Your Pets and p*ss In Your Beer.

weebleswobble wrote:A quick reminder B4 the election:
The Tories Will f**k Your Dead Grandparents, Rape Your Pets and p*ss In Your Beer.

Can't saying anything to that other than "seconded".

markfiend wrote:We have a situation whereby taxpayers have to bail out banks, enriching their multi-millionaire directors when the bank crashes have bankrupted ordinary people. This is Thatcher's legacy, in a very real sense.

To be fair, that bit's as much Brown's legacy. Everyone said he was a great Chancellor when the fake money was rolling in but the above state of affairs is a direct consequence of those boom years. Not that it makes Thatcher any less of a c**t. She stood by Pinochet for Christ's sake.

The vote is cast.
I was the fourth person through the door. The dudes behind the desk were already arguing.

Voted

robertzombie wrote:BNP fight

Shame he had backup.

weebleswobble wrote:A quick reminder B4 the election:
The Tories Will f**k Your Dead Grandparents, Rape Your Pets and p*ss In Your Beer.

Gone soft on their policies, eh?


Took Jnr to the Polling Station on the school run;

"Daddy, who you putting a cross for?"

"Ah, that's for me to keep a secret"

"I want Gordon to win, Daddy"

You read it here first. Hardcore Labour voter at five years-old.

I voted twice.

Once for the parliamentary election, once for Leeds city council.

Election Day, and still no polling card

markfiend wrote:I voted twice.

Once for the parliamentary election, once for Leeds city council.

Aye, I put my X on Ed's Balls

went left this time, I wanted to send a message

when things are better I'll probably go back to my usual but this time solidarity is required and as much are they're no great shakes, for a man of my years and in my position, they're the best option

charity begins at home, my home

...it's not over yet but I had higher hopes than this

Well, this is boringly predictable.

Best news thus far: Jacqui 'your-civil-liberties-belong-to-me' Smith has lost has lost her seat.

Looks like my vote did actually count (along with just a few others);

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/electi ... cy/c54.stm

Fuck me!

Not unexpected but still...