Heartland

it's not reluctance to use them, it's just that we don't have any at the moment - all our water cannons are still over there

Quiff Boy wrote:it's not reluctance to use them, it's just that we don't have any at the moment - all our water cannons are still over there

Ah true! Perhaps we'll have the moral high-ground for once and be peaceable!

Excerpt from an email from a friend in London:

"Meanwhile, in Manchester, debate continues over whether the city experienced serious social unrest...or a Tuesday."

abridged wrote:

MadameButterfly wrote:and apparently from our news here, the police are finally going to put in rubber bullets?

it's very sad that this is happening and just hope you all keep safe!

and hope that this comes to an end very quickly.

One of the things that causing some merriment around here is the reluctance to use water cannon and plastic bullets in England when they are quite freely used (the water cannon at least) on us vicious rioting Irish every summer. Most of the rioters are around 16 over here also and for the majority it's a bit of craic mixed with blatant sectarianism. I consider myself to be of the left but have found myself increasingly not buying the we have no future so we burn down homes and loot tvs argument. If it's accurate how can deprivation be an excuse for attacking a hospital? For the record I'm from a council estate in what is classed a very deprived area.

i can't see why anyone would be reluctant to use the plastic bullets. what i've seen on the dutch media, is like what has be mentioned on here, it started with police shooting Mark Duggan which seems to be a trigger to start all this. then you see people in their shops not believing what is happening but also saying when phoning the police no one arrived. then you see people being p!ssed off about always the same race being the trouble makers and then you see these young youth of all nationalities that are going ape sh!t! brings me to think that it's there are more factors than one playing a role there. and then not enough police to handle all the chaos. they the goolins should be dealt with immediate action & if it takes a plastic/rubber bullet, let it be... but contain it & arrest them all. they've already done enough damage, know someone must put their foot down & you guys have to keep safe.

James Blast wrote:Cut off their goolies!

...

or water ... it's the only means to keep our cat from a bird once she's got her sight on it ...

They burned down building in Enfield where was storage with XL Recordings, Beggars, Domino, Sunday Best, Warp Defected, Wall of Sound i Big Brother recordings distributed by PIAS.

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

*link found on PD ... ...

People obey the law because of three things, really (which could arguably all be collapsed into self-interest):

1) Shame/honor (i.e., they will be publicly shamed because for breaking it or honored for obeying it. Locke calls this the "law of fashion.")

2) Moral habits--which are arguably rooted in 1) above

3) Fear of the consequences of breaking the law

1) and 2) weren't going to do it. It's too late for 3), isn't it? The damage has been done.

So what is to be done going forward? The looters know that the loot-ees won't stand up to them. Does anyone think this would be happening if they thought they'd be punished? Publicly wringing hands about rubber bullets and water cannons simply tells the looter that he can act with impunity.

If the law lacks teeth, why should anyone obey it? If it lacks teeth, how is it anything other than a suggestion?

I'll say it - despite how unpopular it'll make me...

They all need a f**king good shoeing.

Another reason to obey the law (well, most of it anyway ) is a sense of decency and respect for other folks, which some of these rioters/looters obviously seem to be lacking in.

Norman Hunter wrote:I'll say it - despite how unpopular it'll make me...

They all need a f**king good shoeing.

the good old kick up the bum! whilst wipeing the snot off the nose!



it's okay i don't mind being unpopular.

mh wrote:Another reason to obey the law (well, most of it anyway ) is a sense of decency and respect for other folks, which some of these rioters/looters obviously seem to be lacking in.

(Just to be pedantic, I think sultan2075 covers this in point 2 "Moral habits")

lazarus corporation wrote:

mh wrote:Another reason to obey the law (well, most of it anyway ) is a sense of decency and respect for other folks, which some of these rioters/looters obviously seem to be lacking in.

(Just to be pedantic, I think sultan2075 covers this in point 2 "Moral habits")

Yeah, but I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

It's an interesting question, though. What do you do when such a sizable portion of society has no reason to obey the law? How do you fix the problem, and what causes it in the first place?

From an outsiders point of view, something has obviously gone very wrong and contributed to the moral malformation of these young people. But what? What is it? And what can be done?

sultan2075 wrote:

lazarus corporation wrote:

mh wrote:Another reason to obey the law (well, most of it anyway ) is a sense of decency and respect for other folks, which some of these rioters/looters obviously seem to be lacking in.

(Just to be pedantic, I think sultan2075 covers this in point 2 "Moral habits")

Yeah, but I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

It's an interesting question, though. What do you do when such a sizable portion of society has no reason to obey the law? How do you fix the problem, and what causes it in the first place?

From an outsiders point of view, something has obviously gone very wrong and contributed to the moral malformation of these young people. But what? What is it? And what can be done?

sorry for the intrusion but about what mh says & does laz... what? why? they obviously lack the morals we seem to live by given down by our parents. like i try to give my children...

but what do you do when this happens in your street. well i'm not there but i would definately keep my children safe inside and do all i can do to protect my property and if they keep coming and start causing a treat to me or mine isn't it a case of self defense if you don't have the law close to you to do it? something a moral person would do. i wouldn't kill but i would contain.

also what is the moral malformation of these young people... well if they don't have money or their families don't and the moral situation at home is a minimal & knowing the youth of today if the one does it having nothing else to do, why not get the addrenaline up by going with the clan to cause havoc, burn things, f**k the police, f**k the government f**k all society cause we just don't care... well doesn't it become a rolling flaming ball going downhill?

but still respect to you all living through this so very close to you. still hope it gets contained and the boom-clean up carries on & don't let these little & weird old hooligans get to you.

we know more is said in silence and a cup of tea & wish the best for England.

sultan2075 wrote:From an outsiders point of view, something has obviously gone very wrong and contributed to the moral malformation of these young people. But what? What is it? And what can be done?

MadameButterfly wrote:also what is the moral malformation of these young people...

This is what happens when you decide, a few decades back when these people's parents were growing up (the people whose job it is to impart a sense of morality to their children), that "there is no such thing as society".

Society is, amongst other things, the social enforcer of the shame/honour values that sultan2075 mentions.

Without society there is no shame or honour. Shame happens when a person's guilt is perceived, reflected, and amplified by society.

Shame is a powerful constraining force, but it needs a society for it to work. When you deliberately start picking apart society (by breaking the bonds between local communities, encouraging individual greed over social relationships, etc) then shame is weakened as a constraining force, and honour is dismissed in favour of "success".

yes i see what you are saying but surely now when those that don't have any respect for society should be punished for it.

these youngsters/people are stealing & destroying & burning & don't have any respect for the society or protesting because they are jobless because of foreign people coming into the country and taking their jobs... as some of them see it. it's too many social reasons that is causing them to fight by what they know how to do.

we as a society think it's not correct and i'm sure we are correct on this one.

now let's hope they can be controlled.

I liked the headline on the day edition of the Glasgow Evening Times
CLAMPDOWN

only old fart Clash aficionados will get that

MadameButterfly wrote:yes i see what you are saying but surely now when those that don't have any respect for society should be punished for it.

these youngsters/people are stealing & destroying & burning & don't have any respect for the society or protesting because they are jobless because of foreign people coming into the country and taking their jobs... as some of them see it. it's too many social reasons that is causing them to fight by what they know how to do.

we as a society think it's not correct and i'm sure we are correct on this one.

now let's hope they can be controlled.

Yes, I think they should be punished for looting and arson etc, and we have laws that allow the courts to punish people for such crimes (the maximum sentence for the most serious arson offence - "Arson with intent to endanger life" - is a life sentence).

I want to be clear that I've laid out some of the reasons for their behaviour (that is, the reasons for their non-adherence to a shared set of morals that would have reduced the likelihood of this behaviour, which is because the social construct - and the society itself - that polices behaviour was deliberately eroded many years ago, and these are the consequences), but please don't mistake an underlying reason for an excuse.

There's a lot of reactionary nonsense going round at the moment that tries to stifle any discussion of cause and effect by claiming that searching for a "cause" is identical to providing an excuse. Causes and excuses are two different things - causes are contributory factors, and an individual can choose to overcome a contributory factor (which means that causes are not excuses). However any increase in contributory factors to criminality increases the probability of an incidence of criminality occurring within any group of people (that's just simple statistical probability applied to any large enough group).

My God. When will it end.

IZ.

There seems to be a generation of yobs who are completely alienated from what "my" generation would think of normal behaviour and therefore 'society'? They don't fit in with what we think and do, so don't give a stuff..

here's your lovely "protesters"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsS8kTQkjfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmW2BFfQXh0

c*nts.

Norman Hunter wrote:I'll say it - despite how unpopular it'll make me...

They all need a f**king good shoeing.

Seconded

Sad to see the far-right riding high on the reactionary band-wagon:

English Defence League attack black people sitting on a bus:
source (with video of attack): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... dents.html

"Supporting the Met Police against the London rioters" Facebook page (which now has 947,634 followers) set up by racist:(as revealed by his twitter feed)

i do understand what you are saying Laz i do, and everyone is asking why which at this point in time boils down to too many factors that have to be dealt with one at a time and with all the cuts in areas of the economy for many countries, it's such a rolling stone that i still believe should be sorted. i've seen the youtube (without sound) lovely protesters c*nts & again i ask where are the police? there doesn't seem to be any serious action to stop the mobs! come on! at least one should feel safe in one's country? the police here have no tolerance & would go in with at least tear gas but then again if there is no law in the areas needing it, what could you do in a bunch like that than stay indoors and protect yourself/yourselves!

MadameButterfly wrote:... & again i ask where are the police? there doesn't seem to be any serious action to stop the mobs!

My guess is that they don't fancy putting themselves at risk of injury (or worse) when the government is in the middle of planning to drastically cut police budgets and enforce large numbers of redundancies.

The promise of redundancies in the near future rarely raises morale amongst staff, and tends not to push staff to go the extra mile (especially when the "extra mile" could easily result in hospitalisation).