Heartland

Just leaving this here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19271.html

I believe that Jews are aware of irony, irony of history.
First, wall to put Palestinians into ghetto, now cleansing. There's something very wrong with those of people who are for that actions.

"Those supporting the cleansing tended to be Russian-speaking"

There has been massive immigration from Russia and the Baltic states since the early 90s into Israel, especially supported by Likud to shift the political spectrum to the right. While there was always a solid majority for the left till the early 70s and regular goverment change till around 2000, nowadays there is a solid Likud majority supported by extreme right-wing and religious parties.

Btw, are there any Israeli or Palestinian Forum members around? Might be interesting to read their opinion about our discussion here, not just us foreigners writing from our cosy European perspective...

Zacharias wrote:Just leaving this here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19271.html

So 48% of Israelis want to remove Palestinians from Israel, and 60% of Palestinians want to remove Israel from the map all together. There is definitely moral clarity in these numbers...

bismarck wrote:

Zacharias wrote:Just leaving this here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19271.html

So 48% of Israelis want to remove Palestinians from Israel, and 60% of Palestinians want to remove Israel from the map all together. There is definitely moral clarity in these numbers...

That is definitely THE TIMES OF ISRAEL, well known for their scaremongering, but hell ... both sides take to such infantile strategies again and again ... never trust a statistic you didn't manipulate yourself ... ...

Being645 wrote: That is definitely THE TIMES OF ISRAEL, well known for their scaremongering, but hell ... both sides take to such infantile strategies again and again ... never trust a statistic you didn't manipulate yourself ... ...

Fair enough; all political media is biased in one direction or the other.

There's a bitter irony that the area is known as the Holy Land. It's been soaking in blood for most of recorded history.

markfiend wrote:There's a bitter irony that the area is known as the Holy Land. It's been soaking in blood for most of recorded history.

I wouldn't expect anything else from a Holy Land. Religion is the exact opposite of the egoless pursuit of truth that predicates peace.

Chaotican wrote:

markfiend wrote:There's a bitter irony that the area is known as the Holy Land. It's been soaking in blood for most of recorded history.

I wouldn't expect anything else from a Holy Land. Religion is the exact opposite of the egoless pursuit of truth that predicates peace.

Yeah, religion and bloodshed ... it's always the same when anyone claims to know the ABSOLUTE truth ...

IMHO, most people shy away from uncomfortable truths and, thus, hardly ever experience the FACT that the snake always bites its tail ...
Well most of the time, it is not necessary to get everything to that point, either ... killing the "enemy" can be much easier, more convenient and profitable ... ...

Religion is just the most exploitive and least thoughtful form of thought and truth avoidance, though.

Had some great discussions over the last few days. (And have some paths to explore back home...maybe even a little hope.) It stuck me how even a strict allegiance to justice is a type of blindness. What makes a person want to be what we call a fascist or a racist, for example?

The instinct of many (less common here than in the us) is to shut the thought down and claim that they don't care what illness drives those people as long as they are stopped, that is the same instinct and laziness that leads to religion, bloodshed, and a circular path of non-evolution.

We can all find discomfort in truth if we look hard enough.

markfiend wrote:There's a bitter irony that the area is known as the Holy Land. It's been soaking in blood for most of recorded history.

It is indeed Holy Land for Christians and Promised Land for Jewish but it shall be considered No-go Land for muslims as there is no absolutely any connections between Jerusalem and Mohammed. He has not visited this place during his life. He died simply being poisoned by Jewish woman after killing her father, husband and other family members at battle of Khaybar
here is short explanation about this event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iU5CAzMGVA

Spiggythecat wrote:...it shall be considered No-go Land for muslims as there is no absolutely any connections between Jerusalem and Mohammed...

Well that isn't what Muslims believe.

Wiki wrote:According to the Quran, [...] Muhammad was taken by the miraculous steed, that is the Buraq, to visit the Farthest Mosque (which many Muslims believe is Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem), where he prayed, and was then taken to the heavens, in a single night in the year 620 CE.

I could argue that there's no connection between Christianity and Jerusalem because Jesus never existed; there's no connection between Judaism and Jerusalem because there's no YHWH to promise them the land...

That you're willing to allow the religious convictions of Christians and Jews but not those of Muslims is a double standard that says something about you.

markfiend wrote: That you're willing to allow the religious convictions of Christians and Jews but not those of Muslims is a double standard that says something about you.

That's a big words and accustaion of some sort in Teh Gueardian Style. You could suggest and start that he's uniformed, or that his sources are wrong. Relax.

BTW, trivia fact: All [sic!] religions were and are used for purpose of hatred attacks.

Spiggythecat wrote: It is indeed Holy Land for Christians and Promised Land for Jewish but it shall be considered No-go Land for muslims as there is no absolutely any connections between Jerusalem and Mohammed.

Probably more than you think, and you don't have to look to Islamic tradition.

There is archeological evidence that shows that the earliest mosques all faced Jerusalem. You may ask why, but they still do.

The guy in your video is quoting hadith that were complied several generations after Mohammed's death. The Sunni hadith have rather a Rabbinic flavour.

I was wondering what all this had to do with boycotting Israel but then he mentions Hamas.

Hamas are horrific, Israel helped create them (divide and rule). Shame about the blow back.

https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... ed-create/

One thing we can say with confidence is that, among the three Abrahamic religions, the connection between the Holy Land and Judaism is the oldest.

I'm sorry Bartek but my patience with people posting inflammatory nonsense is running thin.

bismarck wrote:One thing we can say with confidence is that, among the three Abrahamic religions, the connection between the Holy Land and Judaism is the oldest.

Oh well, and before them, there were the NEANDERTALERS from that village near Dusseldorf, Germany ... ...

I’ve been wanting to revisit this thread since spending time with my family in Austria. As expected, my aunt shared a very pro-Israel perspective that, while I don’t necessarily accept it, adds a dimension to the discussion. I’ll can try to include an article she wrote regarding a left-wing convention at which she spoke and the backlash she received if anyone is interested. (It is in German and my attempts to translate it failed miserably, so I can only assume it says what I’m paraphrasing here?) I’ll write as if I’m an advocate for this point of view, but again, I’m not saying this is at all true or unbiased.

My aunt, for perspective, is a very liberal/left-wing person. She traveled to Jerusalem as a young adult (edit - and many, many times since) and spent time on a Kibbutz. She writes of her (fictionalized) experiences under the pseudonym Anna Mitgutsch and speaks around Europe. She is known, in her fiction, for making the reader uncomfortable and she doesn’t mince words. She thinks I’m hopelessly optimistic and naive. (And she’s a big Sister’s fan now. 😊)

There are those whose only goal it is to remove Jews from the face of the earth. To kid yourself that we’ve moved beyond this is a luxury that only the privileged can indulge. There is an organized and ever-evolving multi-faceted attack on the Jewish people. Those who orchestrate such attacks realize two things: 1. Anti-Semitism can no longer be blatant; we’ve moved beyond the ability to sway masses with obvious hate speech. 2. Jews will survive as long as Israel does.

The genius of the latest attack on Jews is that it is built on self-righteousness. Today’s left-wing doesn’t take the time to explore issues and determine truth, but rather moves as a hive-mind against what they’ve been told is oppression. Much care has been taken to re-write the history of Israel and the middle-east so that it may be viewed only in black and white and Israel can be painted as the villain. The goal is to have both hate groups and the liberal left support the destruction of Israel, and bring in the second and final holocaust. And it’s working.

There is certainly truth to the idea that Israel’s current government is terrible. So is the USA’s, however. This doesn’t negate either country’s right to exist, but rather puts the demand on their citizens to fight for a better system in the future and for justice in the present. The atrocities that are reported in the media are one-sided, and often staged. Palestinian groups will set up cameras for days and try to enrage Israeli soldiers with insults and even physical attacks, in the hopes of being able to film an “attack� and use it in propaganda. Considering that many of the troops are little more than teenagers, they have been successful at times.

The atrocities committed against the people of Israel, in the meantime, are grossly under-reported. The same acts of terrorism that have justified bombings and invasions for America are committed on a regular basis against the Jews of Israel. The world doesn’t sympathize with these attacks because of underlying antisemitism. And that is the reason why Israel must hold strong. We can never rely on any other nation to protect us and we can never again be at the mercy of a world that wishes to exterminate us.

The Palestinians have taken a legitimate injustice that should have been worked out and amplified it until there is no longer a solution. Refugee status is not only passed to relatives who were not displaced, but can be shared via adoption. And it is shared. It has expanded to such a degree that 5 million “refugees� now demand to return to a land from which they never left. The goal is not to resettle but rather to wipe out Israel by outnumbering the Jews until they have no way to hold the homeland. With any significant dilution will come attack.

The only hurdle has been how to turn world opinion against Israel so that there will be no defense in that attack. In some ways this is easy since antisemitism always exists. By manipulating the liberal left to side blindly with the Palestinians, the world may reach a critical tipping point and Israel may be destroyed.

Again, that is the argument as presented to me by my aunt, a very intense woman. Also, she and my cousin are deeply involved in their local synagogue and they face persecution that I didn’t know still existed today. I know that there are many counter-points, many already broadcast in this thread. The point that I’m trying to make is that, in many people’s eyes, defending Israel is a matter of survival. (I’ll save my own personal opinions as they zoom out from this particular conflict too far to be meaningful to this discussion.)

Finally and IMHO, the state of Israel itself sees to creating (and maintaining) reasons to fear other people through its own actions ...

One example: http://www.btselem.org/publications/sum ... nprotected

Well, at least we've now got straight what the capital city is.

shivarising wrote:Well, at least we've now got straight what the capital city is.

Still, there are no definite borders ... ...