Heartland

So the Fascists are planning to "protest" Heather Heyer's funeral.


What a bunch of bastards.

markfiend wrote:So the Fascists are planning to "protest" Heather Heyer's funeral.


What a bunch of bastards.

The words I would have used would have exhausted my asterisk quota for the rest of the year.

That makes me sick. World turn right that's not right or good for all of us.

My blood boiled yestarday when i saw guy with "white power" and fist symbol inked on the back of his neck, Odal rune on one side of his neck and some "germanica" font sign with two swastikas inked on his arm. In the middle of the city that was over 140 years in Prussian hands, in country that had suffered that much from Nazi Germans.

Makes me sick too.

I'm also sick of the "both-sides-are-as-bad" commentary I keep seeing about the Charlottesville race-hate parade.

No. Fcuk that noise. No-one is "as bad" as literal Nazis.

markfiend wrote:Makes me sick too.

I'm also sick of the "both-sides-are-as-bad" commentary

I think News Thump's parody really hit the nail on the head there.

Pista wrote:
I think News Thump's parody really hit the nail on the head there.

It's funny isn't it. The vocal pro-Israel lobby love to paint any sentiment from the left that's even vaguely critical of Israel as anti-Semitic. And yet, In C'Ville over the weekend we had people chanting "Jews will not replace us" and waving Swastika flags, and I'm hearing no complaint at all.

Not this shiat again.

Hoping all our HL-ers in Barcelona & their nearest & dearest are okay

markfiend wrote:It's funny isn't it. The vocal pro-Israel lobby love to paint any sentiment from the left that's even vaguely critical of Israel as anti-Semitic. And yet, In C'Ville over the weekend we had people chanting "Jews will not replace us" and waving Swastika flags, and I'm hearing no complaint at all.

Well, their argument is that the liberal left metropolitan elite, the salon socialist goyim, who like to think that they're oh-so-very-liberal-and-tolerant, "I mean, Jocasta and Tarquin go to school with children whose parents are from Bangladesh, so don't go calling me a racist!", hide their rampant anti-semitism behind the veil of "It's not jews I don't like, it's the actions of the Israeli government - there's a difference, you know?" whereas the f*ckwits, c*nts, and mouth-breathing tw@s in C'ville were at least open about their hatred, and if there's one thing the ADL can get behind it's bluntness. Helps to reinforce their view that anyone who doesn't approve of, I don't know, bulldozing olive groves and shooting kids who throw stones, let's say, is wearing a vest with a swastika on it under their Free Nelson Mandela t-shirt.

But, but, you can separate action done by State and citizens.
I like Russians but dislike Russia.

It just seems odd to me that liking Jews but disliking Israel is a stance that faces more disapproval than outright hatred.

I'm straying dangerously close to "...but some of my best friends are Jewish" there aren't I?

markfiend wrote:It just seems odd to me that liking Jews but disliking Israel is a stance that faces more disapproval than outright hatred.

I guess that it may come from reasoning: Jews elected their politicians to act in their name (at least majority of those who voted), thus you can't separate citizens from State, so disliking State equal disliking Jews.

But that's wrong logic. Many Brits were aginst invading Iraq, same with Americans with Iraq or Vietnam.

But, didn't we discussed that in other thread?

Bartek wrote:

markfiend wrote:It just seems odd to me that liking Jews but disliking Israel is a stance that faces more disapproval than outright hatred.

I guess that it may come from reasoning: Jews elected their politicians to act in their name (at least majority of those who voted), thus you can't separate citizens from State, so disliking State equal disliking Jews.

I think that's the difficult bit for me. With one breath the government of Israel lays claim to be a democracy, and with the next it sets itself up as a theocracy. You cannot have it both ways. As things stand the government should represent the interests of all Israeli citizens - jews, muslims, christians, those of any faith and of none. We can argue the semantics of whether "jew" is a religious or a cultural entity, but these are outside the remit of a nominally democratic government. Israelis elected their politicians to act in their name, but you must be able to separate citizens from the state - just because you elect a politician doesn't mean you have to agree with everything he does, which is why you get to kick him out if he does things you disapprove of.

Bartek wrote:Many Brits were against invading Iraq, same with Americans with Iraq or Vietnam.

Precisely. And most Iranians didn't much care for the way Ahmadinejad ran their country either. The measure of a country must be reckoned as much by the actions of the government as by the reaction to that governance from its citizenry, and from the actions of the citizens themselves. What's interesting about the US these days is that for every stupidity uttered by the President, whatever reaction it provokes from the kinds of arseholes who think that his election gives them carte blanche to engage in rabid xenophobia, it provokes an equal and opposite reaction from the people who are fundamentally opposed to seeing their country ridiculed, pilloried and made a pariah of as a result of this behaviour. Which is, if nothing else, reassuring.

MarkFiend wrote:I'm straying dangerously close to "...but some of my best friends are Jewish" there aren't I?

Yes, but we love you anyway. And some of my best friends really are jewish (although obviously I wouldn't want my sister to marry one).

This one made my mind boggle:

Insane Clown Posse mobilise their fans to challenge neo-Nazis

Let's just hope the Fash don't bring magnets

I was wondering where all the political talk would be here. Missed this thread so just catching up.

As an American Jew (atheist one, but still...) and a political organizer who specializes in bringing sides together, I want to weigh in here.

First, as far as I can tell, the right wing Jews who support trump and Netanyahu are baffling. The most common thread I see is a combination of deep, paralytic fear and a denial of that fear that comes out as aggression. They are so afraid of being victimized that they choose to condone victimizing others. They are not the majority.

I don't know why you perceive silence from the more mainstream Jewish community regarding c'ville and the actions of antifa. I actually got slaughtered by the much more common, liberal Jewish contingent when I wanted to review video of the event to see how antifa behaved before making statements. Right now, antifi is viewed as a league of untouchable angels in liberal America. (Not every member always behaves in a way that can be called heroic in every situation. I think I've gotten jumped on here for defending them and I stand with them frequently. Just wanted to be sure that what trump claimed was untrue.)

I was speaking with one of the leaders of Indivisible out here last night. (At a demonstration that was 70% Jewish, as it turns out; we do get riled up over Nazis.) She is also teacher at a synagogue and told me that their religious leadership is constantly speaking out against Israel's actions. The very careful distinction is that the reasonable people don't then start spewing about Zionism and hidden agendas and how all Jews should be gotten rid of.

Inevitably, Mark, SOMEONE brings the conversation comes around to the ultimate evil of Jews and how Israel shouldn't exist and that scares some people and they go all militant right wing and there is our circle of fear and misunderstanding and hate, right?

For the next round of demonstrations, there is a huge debate going on in the resistance groups. In the bay area, there was a march on google planned, but that was set prior to the clash in c'ville and canceled by the group that organized it as they realized they would be lumped in with those other fascists and they didn't want to take the heat. Now, there is a march in downtown San Francisco and one in Berkeley the following day planned.

Some want to stand directly in front of the "patriot prayer" and are prepared for violence. Some want to counter-demonstrate far away. And some want to make it into a clownish event, wearing costumes and having a raging dance party to show that the alt-right are a pathetic joke, mostly. Huge criticism from people of color on that approach, btw, as they see it as white privilege to be able to wear a costume and dance in front of Nazis. You can't do that so much if you have brown skin.

I learn more from these "initial reaction" times than I do from watching people after the ripples of thought have settled into whatever was approved and sanitized by the masses. The initial reactions were violent and passionate and I find that encouraging, whether or not it is wise to let that emotional reaction translate into action. For my part, I'm working with both my (Muslim) friend from Lebanon who wants a confrontational counter-march and on a dance party nearby. (And taking other actions and holding other demonstrations as well. We have mass sympathy and support at the moment and...I haven't slept much so forgive the lack of coherency!)

Many see this as the pivoting point. They have faith that trump will no longer have power after this display. I hope so. Personally, I just see it as more escalation. Like a battered woman whose husband went from giving her black eyes to putting her in the hospital. Draw the line now or else this becomes the new norm. And tomorrow will be worse.

Chaotican wrote:I don't know why you perceive silence from the more mainstream Jewish community regarding c'ville and the actions of antifa.

I'm thinking more of the Christian right-wing commentators--you know, the ones who bang on about "America's Judeo-Christian heritage"--rather than Jewish Americans, if that makes sense. The accusations of anti-Semitism have always sounded hollow from the Billo Rileys of this world.

Chaotician wrote: I actually got slaughtered by the much more common, liberal Jewish contingent when I wanted to review video of the event to see how antifa behaved before making statements. Right now, antifi is viewed as a league of untouchable angels in liberal America.

There has been a lot of anti-antifa rhetoric on social media and it proper p*sses me off. As far as I'm concerned everybody ought to be anti-Nazi and, as Nazi beliefs literally include the genocide of people not like them, punching Nazis is self-defence. YMMV

There has been a lot of anti-antifa rhetoric on social media and it proper p*sses me off. As far as I'm concerned everybody ought to be anti-Nazi and, as Nazi beliefs literally include the genocide of people not like them, punching Nazis is self-defence. YMMV[/quote]

Again, this is one of those times when I p*ss off both sides. I was there when Spencer got punched and you know how I feel about that one. There were plenty of other things that happened at the anti-inauguration gathering in DC that day and on other occassions that did not sit well with me and made me think there are some very unfocused children involved with many of the antifa groups. I can't write too much about it, but if I see you in the next few weeks, I'm happy to speak!

(This is Sarah from facebook and twitter, btw, in case that isn't completely obvious.)

Chaotican wrote:(This is Sarah from facebook and twitter, btw, in case that isn't completely obvious.)

I had worked that out

Planning an armed robbery?
Machete? Check. Getaway car? Check. Witch costume? Check.....Wait! What?

From the institute of the bleedin' obvious: If your Canadian bank notes have Chinese writing on them they are fake

'If it's brown, flush it down' ....or throw it out the window

Charlie wrote:'If it's brown, flush it down' ....or throw it out the window

Haha. She traded swipe left for wipe left

Charlie wrote:'If it's brown, flush it down' ....or throw it out the window

My favourite bit is that they've seen each other again since. Awwwww