Heartland

I was reading this book and the following is a cut down version of the conversation.

M1 “Where is your free will? Is it part of your brain, or does it emanate from someplace outside your body and somehow control your actions?�

M2 “I’ll say it comes from my brain. I mean, it’s a function of my brain. I don’t have a better answer.�

M1 “Your brain is like a machine in many ways, isn’t it? The brain is composed of cells and neurons and chemicals and pathways and electrical activity that all conform to physical laws. When part of your brain is stimulated in one specific way, could it respond any way it wants, or would it always respond in one specific way?�

M2 “There’s no way to test that. No one knows.�

M1 “Then you believe we can only know things that have been tested?�

M2 “I’m not saying that.�

M1 “Then you’re not saying anything, are you? So where is free will?�

M2 “It must involve the soul.�

M1 “Soul? Where is the soul located?

M2 “It’s not located anywhere. It just is.�

M1 “Then the soul is not physical in nature, according to you?�

M2 “I guess not. Otherwise someone probably would have found physical evidence of it.�

M1 “So you believe that the soul, which is not physical, can influence the brain, which is physical?�

M2 “I guess I believe that.�

M1 “Do you believe the soul can influence other physical things, like a car or a watch?�

M2 “No, I think souls only affect brains.�

M1 “Can you soul influence other people’s brains, or does it know which brain is yours?�

M2 “My soul must know which brain is mine, otherwise I’d be influenced by other souls and I wouldn’t have free will.�

M1 “Your soul, according to you, knows the difference between your brain and everything else that is not your brain. And it never makes a mistake in that regards. That means your soul has structure and rules, like a machine.�

M2 “It must.�

M1 “If the soul is the source of free will, then it must be weighing alternatives and making decisions.�

M2 “That’s its job.�

M1 “But that’s what brains do. Why would you need a soul to do what a brain can do?�

M2 “Maybe the soul has free will and the brain doesn’t. Or the soul causes your brain to have free will. Or the soul is smarter or more moral than the brain. I don’t know.�

M1 “If the soul’s actions are not controlled by rules, that can only mean the soul acts randomly. On the other hand, if your soul is guided by rules, which in turn guide you, then you have no free will. You are programmed. There is no in between; your life is either random or predetermined. Which is it?�

M2 “Maybe God is guiding my soul.�

M1 “If God is guiding your soul and your soul is guiding your brain, then you are nothing more than a puppet of God. You don’t really have free will in that case, do you?�

M2 “Maybe God is guiding my soul in a sort of directional way, but it’s up to me to figure out the exact steps to take.�

M1 “That sounds as if God is giving you some sort of an intelligence test. If you make right choices, good things happen to your soul. Is that what you’re saying?�

M2 “It’s not about intelligence, it’s about morality.�

M1 “Morality?�

M2 “Yes, morality.�

M1 “Is your brain involved in making moral decisions or do those decisions get made someplace outside your body?�

</end discussion>

Now I’ve been thinking about this conversation all night and I can’t find anyway out of it. It’s as if every answer is barred. The idea of having no free will is actually disturbing me.

So, my question is do you think free will is real?

I'm not allowed to say.....

weebleswobble wrote:I'm not allowed to say.....

Freak'in Ginger I was going to say that!

Nods as good as a wink to a blind man...

9while9 wrote:

weebleswobble wrote:I'm not allowed to say.....

Freak'in Ginger I was going to say that!

I Know









And Stop calling me Ginger, Dead Joke, deader than a parrot

weebleswobble wrote:

9while9 wrote:

weebleswobble wrote:I'm not allowed to say.....

Freak'in Ginger I was going to say that!

I Know









And Stop calling me Ginger, Dead Joke, deader than a parrot

No, no, the parrots not dead it's just resting > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIrBMt4e ... y%20Python

Anyway:

Even if (as I suspect, but cannot demonstrate) the brain is effectively a "machine" this doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of "free will". I think the premise is setting up a false dichotomy between "random" and "pre-determined":

Quantum systems (radioactive decay is one example) are ruled entirely by the laws of physics (or more accurately, are described by the laws of physics) but are inherently unpredictable ("random") on the microscopic scale. There's simply no way of predicting when (say) one particular atom of carbon-14 is going to spit out a beta emission and turn into a nitrogen atom, even though we can be statistically certain ("pre-determined") that half of any given sample of carbon-14 will decay in 5370±40 years.

So if there are any quantum systems involved in the brain, their indeterminacy could be a source of our percieved free-will.

It is at least possible that free will is an illusion though, but greater philosophers than myself have spent far more time thinking about it. I prefer to think of it this way:

• It appears to me that I have free will. While I am aware that this may only be a comforting illusion, I choose to act as though my apparent free will is real.

I like sweets.
Red ones are my favourites.
With shiny wrappers.

Lovely.

What was the question again?

If we go on the principle that "God" has given us free will... then surely we don't have free will. If you believe that God has given us free will, then surely you also believe that he has planned the entire history and future of time. And therefore, planned everything we will do, so we don't have free will coz he's already decided what we will do

But that God malarkey is a load of arse gravy

robertzombie wrote:If we go on the principle that "God" has given us free will... then surely we don't have free will. If you believe that God has given us free will, then surely you also believe that he has planned the entire history and future of time. And therefore, planned everything we will do, so we don't have free will coz he's already decided what we will do

But that God malarkey is a load of arse gravy

Oh definitely, free will is contradicted by any notion of omniscience and/or omnipotence.

Having said that, omnipotence is a logically incoherent concept anyway. Can an omnipotent God create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

+10 points for the Stephen Fry reference, Rob.

-10 points for gratuitous, unsubstantiated anti-religious statement.

I had a big long argument on a church forum about why the Garden of Eden story contradicts the existence of sin, with a bit of free will stuff thrown in, but I'll copy and paste that some other time

Speaking of the Garden of Eden. Have you seen Ricky Gervais' "Animals" when he questions God's punishment of the snake

Dark wrote:+10 points for the Stephen Fry reference, Rob.

It's impossible to steal someone's joke in this place

markfiend wrote:
Having said that, omnipotence is a logically incoherent concept anyway. Can an omnipotent God create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

"could jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it??"

nick the stripper wrote:M1 &#8220;If the soul is the source of free will, then it must be weighing alternatives and making decisions.&#8221;

M2 &#8220;That&#8217;s its job.&#8221;

M1 &#8220;But that&#8217;s what brains do. Why would you need a soul to do what a brain can do?&#8221;

The brain is merely an interface that allows the soul to control the body.

I do believe that the brain knows more than it's telling us

That's why you have to have it shot

Agggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

My pretty little head can't grasp all of this rock vs. burrito stuff!