Heartland

For the last few years a good friend of mine. Let's call him "Gollum's Ring" has stopped buying CD's and has been plucking other people's fruit from the internet.

He has however bought all of The Sisters' official releases apart from " A slight case...." which at the time of release could not be arsed buying, but later decided it was worth having ( but not enough to spend any money on it).

What are the other Heartlanders opinions on this kind of action, especially if it concerns work by the Sisters.

(By the way Buxy, my friend says sorry and if he ever sees you in the pub will buy you a pint to make up for it).

As I said on another Thread, I steal fae the internetty on a daily basis but buy certain product-Sissies being one of them

(if mammy wasnae buying it fur me)

Gollum's Cock wrote:For the last few years a good friend of mine. Let's call him "Gollum's Ring" has stopped buying CD's and has been plucking other people's fruit from the internet.

He has however bought all of The Sisters' official releases apart from " A slight case...." which at the time of release could not be arsed buying, but later decided it was worth having ( but not enough to spend any money on it).

What are the other Heartlanders opinions on this kind of action, especially if it concerns work by the Sisters.

(By the way Buxy, my friend says sorry and if he ever sees you in the pub will buy you a pint to make up for it).

Mmm, difficult.

In some ways i'd liken "picking fruit" to the listening booth's you get in most major record shops, you should be allowed to hear something first to decide if it's definitely worth purchasing.

But continually "picking fruit" and not buying is another matter entirely.

Bootlegs and weeding/sharing don't count either, as it's (generally) not recordings that are commercially available elsewhere.

Sisters official - I buy it
Sisters unofficial - I get gifted, I also spread the disease

Big Si wrote: Bootlegs and weeding/sharing don't count either

It's a damn good job really, eh?

That's a tricky one.
The record companies see no trouble is stealing my money on a regular basis. They call it "business" when I call it extortion.
I've got hundreds and hundreds of legally acquired CDs. I don't think I'm doing the companies much harm when I copy an album or two.

Badlander wrote:I don't think I'm doing the companies much harm when I copy an album or two.

Preach Eric, Preach!

On average, the more music someone downloads illegally, the more music they buy. Fact.

It works on d/ling TV too. I frequently download TV shows (usually available the day after they've aired in the US if you know where to look), but then buy them months (sometimes years) later when they come out on DVD.

Examples: South Park, Family Guy, American Dad.

markfiend wrote:On average, the more music someone downloads illegally, the more music they buy. Fact.

It works on d/ling TV too. I frequently download TV shows (usually available the day after they've aired in the US if you know where to look), but then buy them months (sometimes years) later when they come out on DVD.

Examples: South Park, Family Guy, American Dad.

Yeah agree, if it's any good. Otherwise you don't buy it. That's the main difference from now and then (before internet) - you don't buy crappy records any more.

Download TV stuff all the time, rarely download any commercially available tunes but am a sucker for boots etc. Didn't even look to see if the new Sissies albums are floating around - takes all the fun out of opening the wrapped lovelies when they arrive

I don't steal, because its wrong.

I deny that downloading music illegaly is morally equivalent to stealing.

If you have an apple, then I steal it from you, you no longer have the apple.

If you have some music, then I make a digital copy, you still have the music.

In economic terms, the apple would be an exclusive good : you and I can't have it at the same time. Digital music is non exclusive by definition : if I get it, you still can have it, I didn't take it away from you. Much like streetlight : you and I can stand under the same bulb and enjoy the same amount of light. But if you paid for the bulb and I didn't, would you say I'm stealing light ?

"Exclusive good". I knew there was a specific term. Ta.

markfiend wrote:I deny that downloading music illegaly is morally equivalent to stealing.

If you have an apple, then I steal it from you, you no longer have the apple.

If you have some music, then I make a digital copy, you still have the music.

So music piracy is more similar to printing counterfeit money?

IZ.

TheBoyNextDoor wrote:you don't buy crappy records any more.

Now that may be why record companies don't like it.

On the whole "stealing" matter, I fail to see how I could possibly "steal" something from someone if they never even had it in the first place.

markfiend wrote:I deny that downloading music illegaly is morally equivalent to stealing.

If you have an apple, then I steal it from you, you no longer have the apple.

If you have some music, then I make a digital copy, you still have the music.

sorry Mark, this is ridiculous.

You pay for an apple because someone planted it, someone harvested it and someone brought it to your supermarket.

You pay for music because someone composed it, someone recorded it and someone brought it to you cd dealer/internet shop.

grrrrr.

canon docre wrote:

markfiend wrote:I deny that downloading music illegaly is morally equivalent to stealing.

If you have an apple, then I steal it from you, you no longer have the apple.

If you have some music, then I make a digital copy, you still have the music.

sorry Mark, this is ridiculous.

You pay for an apple because someone planted it, someone harvested it and someone brought it to your supermarket.

You pay for music because someone composed it, someone recorded it and someone brought it to you cd dealer/internet shop.

grrrrr.

King Kong knows!

You like apples, buy them.
If you are not sure you are going to like them, take a bite out of it first.
If not to your liking, spit out the piece, don't buy the apples.
If you like them, buy the apples.

I download music I'm not sure about. I don't want to spend money on a band I don't like, I did that too much in the past. So I download a few songs from a new band/new album.
If I don't like them, I saved money on not buying the CD, and I delete the songs.
If I like them, I either keep the songs or delete them, but I buy their CD, when available.

I like all these apple-music comparisons

IZ.

OK, maybe my apple comparison isn't valid. Hmmm.

But...

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:I download music I'm not sure about. I don't want to spend money on a band I don't like, I did that too much in the past. So I download a few songs from a new band/new album.

So it's OK to steal music you don't like?

The vast majority of music I have downloaded I have either bought previously (on analog formats) and am downloading to save myself the hassle of digitising, or music I intend to buy.

I don't see why I should be defensive about this...

I would say 99% of the stuff I illegally download is stuff that's out of print so I couldn't even buy it new if I wanted to.

The other 1% is new stuff that I'm curious how it sounds, if it's decent I'll buy it.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote: So music piracy is more similar to printing counterfeit money?

Piracy can't cause inflation, so no.

@ canondocre : the point is that when you go from an exclusive goods system to a non exclusive goods system, you have to change the whole economic system, and especially payment. With non exclusive goods, you don't have to pay to be able to use a certain product. As soon as it's available, you can consume it for free. Which means free riding is then the most rational strategy : let others pay and enjoy it all the same. That's precisely why you pay taxes to have streetlight : otherwise why would you pay for that ? You'd just let the others do. And since everybody would think and do the same, then no one would pay and there would be no streetlight at all.
Same goes for music : as you can't control distribution anymore, I guess the best and most simple thing to do would be to adopt a system of fees (not to use the word taxes), where you pay a certain sum and then you're free to download as much music as you like.
The alternative solution is to go back to exclusive goods, ie vinyls.

markfiend wrote:OK, maybe my apple comparison isn't valid. Hmmm.

But...

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:I download music I'm not sure about. I don't want to spend money on a band I don't like, I did that too much in the past. So I download a few songs from a new band/new album.

So it's OK to steal music you don't like?

If you had quoted the sentence after that as well, you should have known better

Izzy ALSO wrote:If I don't like them, I saved money on not buying the CD, and I delete the songs.

MarkFiend wrote:The vast majority of music I have downloaded I have either bought previously (on analog formats) and am downloading to save myself the hassle of digitising, or music I intend to buy.

Aha! Then you are NOT stealing and the whole discussion has come to an end!

It is only stealing when you keep songs you didn't pay for, either as a carrier (cd or album etc...) or copyrights-wise. In my opinion.

DLing songs you already have is pretty legal. DLing music you intend to buy is exactly what I do too, with the exception that I also DL music I do not know, and want to check out before I buy their CD, see earlier...

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:Aha! Then you are NOT stealing and the whole discussion has come to an end!

It is only stealing when you keep songs you didn't pay for, either as a carrier (cd or album etc...) or copyrights-wise. In my opinion.

DLing songs you already have is pretty legal. DLing music you intend to buy is exactly what I do too, with the exception that I also DL music I do not know, and want to check out before I buy their CD, see earlier...

IZ.

Alrighty then.

I think it's important to buy the CDs of bands you want to support. Simple as that. I think one ought to buy the Sisters reissues if one wants the songs on them: Never Land (full length) or SKOS (early) or anything else. It's not enough to say, "I've bought the album once, so I can download the extra tracks guilt free." If no one buys the new output (or reissues, as the case is here), why in the world would record companies continue to release or re-release material? And believe me, prospective labels are watching the numbers for these reissues. That's the way the industry works. So buy them, for god's sake, buy them for yourself and as Christmas gifts for your friends and stocking stuffers for your family and coasters for your bourbon.