Heartland

It's a bit of a joke really isn't it? I mean, how many young people even give a flying fuck about what goth originally stood for anyway, its life and its bands.

Sometimes I just feel like an idiot kid trying to get on a train that left sometime in the 80's.

I'm lucky in that I get the tail end, the last kicks and twitches (This MV gig, the m*****n shows, the Neph Cark McCoy one man band) and for this I'm glad. But maybe Porl King has the right of it.

What's brought this on? London is a HUGE city, its the home and capital of youth culture. Punk, Goth, everything. It had ONE place left, one place that was truely ours. It was a bastion, a fortress, it was fcuking wonderful, it had an original Body Electric promo poster pasted onto its ceiling.

The Devonshire Arms is now a metal bar. Effective sinse last Tuesday. The staff have been sacked by the brewary and replaced by more appropriate managers (who just happen to hold Slipknott and Korn in highest regard).

This may mean nothing to some of you. It's not the beginning of the end, that's been and gone. It's just another scrap of proof of the irrelevance of Goth in it's true form as a subculture today.

Nah, I smell other hands at work. Goth is on the rise what with all this EMO bollocks.

Really?

I walk amoung the bollocks that is emo, it looks a bit like goth, but all the substance has been ripped out, raped a few times and then burned.

It's little things that are dying out, Who wears a painted leather jacket and a DIY belt when Topshop will sell you your whole subculture?

Sadly Maisey I fear you may well be right. Problem is most of the 80's goths still around are in their mid to late 30's and are currently being hammered to f**k with interest rate rises etc and quite simply havn't got the cash to spend on socialising they had 12 months ago.
So what do pub owners do?Have an empty pub 3 weeks out of 4 or cater for the younger metal/emo crowd with more disposable income?
The goth night I have sorted of inherited has developed a pattern I've noticed of late.Last week and first week(When people tend to get paid) of the month-respectable crowd, mid 2 weeks-barely enough to break even.Luckily the landlady of the establishment (The Giffard arms in Wolverhampton) is pretty committed to keeping Saturday nights Goth even though the rest of the week is turned over to much more profitable metal nights. Quite how long the Goth nights go on for is in doubt, perfectly understandable sadly. They are not running a charity.

Aw bollocks, I want to make some kind of knowing cynical comment about how all the clientele will have to make do with Highgate cemetary now... but actually I think it is pretty sad. I was just in Camden two weeks ago, and it did cross my mind to round up a few of you London types and make an evening of it in there.
Went in a few months ago with LazCorp + mate (who owns another Devonshire Arms, just off Piccadily Circus, can you believe it)... we laughed our asses off at the "artwork" on the tables (skeleton figure that looked like Iron Maiden's Eddie)... but coming from a city where you're hard pressed to find a venue for a night out that endorses *any* kind of decent alternative culture, I can't help but harbour a sneaking affection.

As far as EMO is concerned, I fcuking loathe that sh!te, it may have pretensions to being "a bit like goth" but really they're a million miles apart as far as I can see. Crucial distinction is Goth, if it must be caricatured as always depressing (which I think would be very unfair but anyway), at least gets depressed about Big Stuff like genocide, Holocaust, rape, murder, war.... If EMO gets depressed, it's because someone said something nasty about it's fringe in Modern Studies last Tuesday. Goth's horizons are infinitely wider, less self-obsessed.

boudicca wrote:we laughed our asses off at the "artwork" on the tables (skeleton figure that looked like Iron Maiden's Eddie)... but coming from a city where you're hard pressed to find a venue for a night out that endorses *any* kind of decent alternative culture, I can't help but harbour a sneaking affection.

I loved the place with a passion, but its that kind of out of date spookiness that they don't want anymore. There isn't any more money to be made out of goths, so they want rid of us. The Dev had its own particular look that was so tongue in cheek it was practially a joke, but it had history, atmosphere, character. It was a rallying point and it was an island in a sea.

There are goth nights all over, but as far as I can tell there are only 3 places that fully flew the flag: The Slimelight, The Dev and Resurrection Records. The Dev just sunk, some argue that slimelight died the day that it replaced Trad Goth with EBM (although I still love slimes). When will RR go?

In fact, when will Camden dissolve? It's only a matter of time. The big campanies have moved in. The Gap is opening up about 50 yards from Cyberdog, which in itself is now an overpriced tourist attraction.

Right now I feel like I did when I realised that my new favourate band where defunct. There was a moment, just after I'd emailed Porl about RS and he'd made it clear he wanted nothing to do with it. A little sample in Darkside, "You son of a bitch, I believed!" And I just felt like I was the only one that actually did anymore. Rosetta Stone are 2 blokes that hate each other, some old fans that are happy remember the good times and one 18 year old realising that he was the only one that gave a s**t and wanted more - life! I don't want to see the ENTIRE SCENE go the same way.

wild bill buttock wrote: So what do pub owners do?Have an empty pub 3 weeks out of 4 or cater for the younger metal/emo crowd with more disposable income?

Maisey wrote: There isn't any more money to be made out of goths, so they want rid of us.

You can have all the passion you want, but the bottom line is profit. Not money grabbing but simple business sense unfortunately

All you need to do is locate/create an army of goffs with buckets of cash and plenty of time on their hands....

my meeting place Hurricaine's and the afterwards club Nightmoves (some of you may have heard of it) are way long gone Claire, I cope with it, just.

Bless ya, Maisey... I know people here are generally varying shades of Goff-in-denial, I come and go from week to week in my embracing/shunning of it, but I always like an enthusiast, and your enthusiasm is a great thing. Probably lacking amongst "current" youth culture which by it's very nature will always be about bandwagon-jumping and passing trends rather than passion. I'm in a similar boat really - searched out the stuff that spoke to me, even though that often meant looking to an era when I was only toying with the idea of being born. Sometimes I feel like an old ex-goff, I've been into all this stuff for a decade now and got sick of it more than once... but the reality is all the main players were defunct/no longer releasing anything (ahem! ) by the time I discovered them, and when I was younger I mourned that.

Now I think I've dispensed with that kind of nostalgia, yet I still love and appreciate so much of what was around back then, and think of ways it can be developed for the future. I think Goff has been around for so long now that it isn't going to "die" as such... its ability to adapt to current trends and accept new influences has been the key to it's survival. You can take the p*ss out of the aesthetic but it generally attracts intelligent and creative people who are quite reluctant to get too pigeonholed by "The Scene" and these kinds of people are the lifeblood of reinvention for the very scene they are so cautious about adhering to.

Maisey wrote: The Dev had its own particular look that was so tongue in cheek it was practially a joke, but it had history, atmosphere, character. It was a rallying point and it was an island in a sea

I loved it....It felt a bit like home, in a strange way. It seems so much I used to love in London is going to pieces. I am thinking about moving from f**king switzerland, but i am getting the impression that in any city in europe the places i like are closing. Not only goth pubs / clubs, but just places with a bit of an edge......I am starting to wonder....

I sooooo loved Mr Pirate...oh no waht a sinking feeling.

Getting rid of the old is the first step to starting up the new. Soon enough there'll be a new "The" goth pub. The Dev, camden... it's all being cleared out and let it go.
It'll be replaced. There'll soon enough be something bigger and better.

Glad I got the chance to experience it in all its shabby glory, even if it was just the once.

I've only been to The Dev 3 times and always prefered the mix of people @ The Worlds End.

I don't really know what all the fuss is about, as this is not the first time The Dev has had a complete make-over. It hasn't always been a goth pub, and I'm sure the regulars were just as pissed off when the brewery thought it was a good idea to rip out its interior the last time around to make way for the goths!

wild bill buttock wrote:Problem is most of the 80's goths still around are in their mid to late 30's and are currently being hammered to f**k with interest rate rises etc and quite simply havn't got the cash to spend on socialising they had 12 months ago.

I tend to agree with this, financial constraints have hit property owners, whereas the younger crowd cannot afford a first time property and some tend to reside with family meaning that they tend to have a larger disposable income than "oldies" like me. Aside from that, at the age of 45 I'd be inviting ridicule if I were to go to a "Goth" club. Why? Because the whole scene has evolved to such an extent that I would not be able to recognise it. When I was regularly clubbing, goth was an offshoot of the whole post-punk thing which had its own niche within the post-punk movement. For me it ceased to have credibility when bands such as the m*****n appeared as they had no original ideas of their own and seemed content to build a career on plagiarisation. This then effectively spawned its own mini-scene that had little in common with the bands from 1979-1981 who had started the post-punk movement. The song that sums this up perfectly is "It's the New Thing" by the Fall, who appear to be the only ones still carrying on from that tradition, and more power to 'em!

Bring Back Teddy Boys!

It's the same here where I live (Netherlands). Old-school Goth club nights have disappeard years ago. Nowadays Goth in the Netherlands can be divided in 2 subcultures: Goth-metal (Within Temptation, Nightwish etc.)and Cybergoth (Suicide Commando, Grendel etc.). I kinda like the last category,but going to a Cyberdance night isn't quite my thingy... (I'm too fat for the tight fetish wear )

Sometimes there are "Eighties Nights" in a club in my neighbourhood, which are quite nice (Sisters, New Order, Skinny Puppy etc.). But to be honest: most of the times I forget to go or I'm too bloody tired to get out of my chair... (a life can change drastically when you have a baby girl).

But when I go, I have a great time, but that's enough for me the rest of the month. I'm an old fcuk ...

weebleswobble wrote:Bring Back Teddy Boys!

I thought that the dodo became extinct centuries ago.

weebleswobble wrote:Bring Back Teddy Boys!

i've been trying for years mate

Don't worry too much Maisey, everything has a cycle. Besides which, 90%+ of the atmosphere of a venue like The Dev is down to the folks who frequent it. The goths will find another venue, unless abject apathy takes over, to call their own.

I wonder what will happen to the posters?

robertzombie wrote:I wonder what will happen to the posters?

Good question...

Nixon wrote: Aside from that, at the age of 45 I'd be inviting ridicule if I were to go to a "Goth" club. Why? Because the whole scene has evolved to such an extent that I would not be able to recognise it. When I was regularly clubbing, goth was an offshoot of the whole post-punk thing which had its own niche within the post-punk movement. For me it ceased to have credibility when bands such as the m*****n appeared as they had no original ideas of their own and seemed content to build a career on plagiarisation. This then effectively spawned its own mini-scene that had little in common with the bands from 1979-1981 who had started the post-punk movement. The song that sums this up perfectly is "It's the New Thing" by the Fall, who appear to be the only ones still carrying on from that tradition, and more power to 'em!

Think I have to mention a club night i went to last weekend in Paris, i was amazed at the quality of music they played. It really spawned form Bauhaus / Tones on Tail / PIL / Red Lorry Yellow Lorry to electro from the likes of the Hacker and Terence Fixmer. Good stuff. Takes place at "Caves St Sabin" every second sat of the month.

Anyone been there ?

double post

Maisey wrote:The Devonshire Arms is now a metal bar.