Heartland

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 00:38**

Right before you enter the forums, it says "The Sisters Of Mercy are a rock/pop/electronic" band (or something to that effect). I know of no band that walks around and says things like, "We're a goth band. We're goths. We play gothic music." However, do I go to goth clubs? Yes. Do I know people who wear black clothing and listen to TSOM? Yes. Do they get played at goth clubs? Yes. Is their music dark? Is it angsty?

I think if you are going to call them goth, you might as well admit that there are a ton of bands with different styles that all fall under the Gothic Umbrella. Anything from The Cure, Sisters, to some punk, to Tool or NIN, some metal, hell, I've even heard Johnny Cash at the goth bar. He's the man in black, isn't he?

I personally have no problem with the label. It's vague, if anything, but I take no condescension from it.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 00:43**

I must admit, I got into TSOM because I was going through a goth phase at 14

I definitely would classify them as post-punk, and they definitely influenced/were influenced by a lot of the sounds going on around at that time, which included proto-goth bands like Joy Division and early goth bands like Bauhaus and Siouxsie. As much as Andrew denies it... it's kind of hard to deny that the Sisters definitely made a big contribution to the subculture.

I'm probably getting banned for this post, but I'm only bein' real, yoh.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 00:57**

It's an old argument. A lot of their early stuff could be better described as "metal/dub/funk", but even Von himself admitted at one point that some of the '83 material certainly fell under the umbrella.

There's still a world of difference between the Sisters and the Sex Gang Children/UK Decay/Southern Death Cult axis though, the latter of whom would have been the "real" "goths" at the time.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 01:16**

Interesting responses. Love the use of quotations on "real" and "goths".

If it's an old argument, I'd imagine there's less people on the side of "They're GOTH, man!" than the side of "The Sisters defy labels!"

Would "gothy music" be any better?

I like the huge, sweeping, general, non-specific tag. It makes things easier. Instead of "post-punk/electronic-industrial/experimental rock" or whatever, just call 'em gothy to my non-music nerd friends.

Or how about, "You know that song Cry Little Sister? Exact same thing."

*runs*

(not THE runs, but as in, running out the door away from the angry g...er, angry post-punk/electronic-industrial/experimental rock fans)

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 01:32**

Speaking of which, it's amazing just how many people think "Cry Little Sister" was done by the SoM.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 08:20**

Andrei wrote:Speaking of which, it's amazing just how many people think "Cry Little Sister" was done by the SoM.

It's actually extremely annoying from my viewpoint

I mean, even those who have listened to no more than two songs by the Sisters are aware of the fact that it is not Andrew's voice. And cannot be in the slightest.
I spent long time telling people off whenever they came up to me and said:"There's this very cool tune from that vampire-movie and it's called Cry Little Sister and it's a Sisters of Mercy song."
My first reaction has always been:"S*d off, you pointless creature!"

Am a bit rude sometimes.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 08:37**

Andrei wrote:I must admit, I got into TSOM because I was going through a goth phase at 14

I'm probably getting banned for this post, but I'm only bein' real, yoh.

Never be ashamed of phases you went through in your life! I guess 75 percent of the members on this board are ex-goths. I was a goth and definately not ashamed of it. You should't be ashamed of it also.

Goth isn't just about clothes and music, it is a certain "feeling". The Goth movement might be dead, but the feeling is still alive these days

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 08:41**

paul wrote:
Andrei wrote:I must admit, I got into TSOM because I was going through a goth phase at 14

I'm probably getting banned for this post, but I'm only bein' real, yoh.
Never be ashamed of phases you went through in your life! I guess 75 percent of the members on this board are ex-goths. I was a goth and definately not ashamed of it. You should't be ashamed of it also.

Goth isn't just about clothes and music, it is a certain "feeling". The Goth movement might be dead, but the feeling is still alive these days

Absolutely.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 11:18**

Somebody who should know it wrote:The Sisters of Mercy are a very dry joke, presented with a lifted eyebrow

(May not have been the exact words he used, but the content was this)
So the genre would be comedy!?!

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 11:37**

I'm not a Goth but I listen to a lot of Goth music- personally I'm too old to give a flying fluck at to anyone-elses opinion. Labelling any music belittles it imho however

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 11:47**

I was going to say too much labelling is but a sign of laziness.

Are the Sisters goth ? Maybe they are, but only if your definition of goth is so vague, it doesn't have any actual meaning anymore.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 12:05**

Ok here goes...
Yes I am an (ex-ish)goth, yes I love(ed) the oevre, the atmosphere, the aesthetic, ok some excessively white waxy faces has led to a level of mockery...yes I have an understanding of irony. I am not ashamed of it, noone should be. I also know it is not for everyone.

Take TSOM out of the Goth scene - especially in the late 1980's - and what would be left? Some gems, some talentless wankers.... they are integral to my life, and for me there can be no goth scene without them. Good or bad, forever and always...

But that does not make them a goth band of course... ..

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 12:16**

paul wrote:
Andrei wrote:Goth isn't just about clothes and music, it is a certain "feeling".
I reckon that about hits the nail on the head. When any new movement begins to emerge it's about a shared feeling manifesting itself. Those concerned who share this feeling begin to define it through outward expression such as how they dress, wear their hair, what they listen to and where they hang out. But these elements are initially as diverse as those involved.

Once such an emergence begins to grow, the tendency seems to be for it to get popularised and redefined from the outside by being marketed to. Once it reaches the point of 'Is it okay to like such and such a band or shirt etc' ... well I guess that just tends to alienate the more creative individuals, often cited as instrumental in starting a scene, particularly when this most likely was never their aim or intention.

As several people have already observed, no one likes their creativity being boxed-in by labels.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 14:02**

The Sisters have, as someone once said, their collective tongue planted so firmly in their collective cheek as to risk permanent facial disfigurement. They are, as noted, a very dry joke.

Goth, on the other hand, seems to be in deadly earnest. One does not imagine Rozz Williams or Valor having a chuckle about what a ridiculous rock and roll cliche there band is. The Sisters were always about subverting and playing with rock and roll stereotypes, among other things. Goth? The girls are a little too smart for that. Plus they don't wax romantic about vampires and associated nonsense, thank goodness.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 14:46**

sultan2075 wrote:Goth? The girls are a little too smart for that. Plus they don't wax romantic about vampires and associated nonsense, thank goodness.

C'm on, the sisters were goth from 'till '85. I can't believe some people are still in denial about this. Black coats, sunnglasses, graveyard photoshoots, dark and melancholic music, strobelights ... you want me to continue?

Nowadays they're too smart to let themselves being labeled, but not in those early days ...

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 15:27**

paul wrote: C'm on, the sisters were goth from 'till '85. I can't believe some people are still in denial about this. Black coats, sunnglasses, graveyard photoshoots, dark and melancholic music, strobelights ... you want me to continue?

Nowadays they're too smart to let themselves being labeled, but not in those early days ...

Well said there paul and I have to say I agree with you. Please do continue as there was a change a few years later.
It's not easy to label them and we know that they were even known as a pop band. Has anyone called them alternative?

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 16:08**

TSOM are a good band, but a s**t joke. So don't give me that "it's all a great big dry joke" rubbish, that's just a poor attempt at their covering their back.

Subjective, Miss Mod, I know.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 16:36**

paul wrote:
sultan2075 wrote:Goth? The girls are a little too smart for that. Plus they don't wax romantic about vampires and associated nonsense, thank goodness.
C'm on, the sisters were goth from 'till '85. I can't believe some people are still in denial about this. Black coats, sunnglasses, graveyard photoshoots, dark and melancholic music, strobelights ... you want me to continue?

Nowadays they're too smart to let themselves being labeled, but not in those early days ...

So were the Doors and the VU goth bands as well?

edit: and let me add for the record, I think the whole thing is a silly argument.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 17:07**

I dunno, VU pushed the edge quite a bit at times. At the very least, they were proto-punk!

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 17:34**

Dark wrote:TSOM are a good band, but a s**t joke. So don't give me that "it's all a great big dry joke" rubbish, that's just a poor attempt at their covering their back.

Subjective, Miss Mod, I know.

Completely agree, I never saw the 'joke' and I'd love someone who did actually get it to explain it too me.

f**k being objective, but they were Goth, are n't any more. Any crowd that attracts a large number of 'dodgy darklings' is a goth band.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 18:09**

sultan2075 wrote:
paul wrote:
sultan2075 wrote:Goth? The girls are a little too smart for that. Plus they don't wax romantic about vampires and associated nonsense, thank goodness.
C'm on, the sisters were goth from 'till '85. I can't believe some people are still in denial about this. Black coats, sunnglasses, graveyard photoshoots, dark and melancholic music, strobelights ... you want me to continue?

Nowadays they're too smart to let themselves being labeled, but not in those early days ...
So were the Doors and the VU goth bands as well?

edit: and let me add for the record, I think the whole thing is a silly argument.

some people can be really persistent in their denial.

edit: the whole thing isn't a silly argument, we call it the truth

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 19:58**

The joke was that they (at least thought that they) did ludicrous bombastic gloriously stupid music, but presented it with a totally straight face.

They did say it was very very dry.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 21:19**

Does it really matter?

Okay, if I have to have an opinion, there's a lot in their music (and not just from 83-85) and their visual style that has much in common with things that are often considered goth. And Andrew's insistence that he knew what "Goth" meant in relation to architecture but not music was certainly the height of desperate denial.

But in the end who cares? They make (made?) music. Like it or don't.

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 21:33**

'Goth' is a matter of age, it seems...

Posted: **22 Feb 2008, 22:04**

James Blast wrote:'Goth' is a matter of age, it seems...

Nope, as I said before, a matter of "feeling"

Heartland

Who is sensitive about TSOM being labelled a 'goth' band?

Who is sensitive about TSOM being labelled a 'goth' band?