Drum programming/akai sampler advice...

Maisey · 24 Dec 2009, 13:34

I'm looking for some advice on upgrading my drum machine setup. I thought some of you lot might be able to give me some advice...

I currently use a bit of software called Acoustica Beatcraft for my drum programming needs, which is great. It's visual in a similar way that the classic Roland machines were (light up pads) and allows you to see clearly the patterns you're programming and edit them with simple a simple click.

What I currently do is export these out as WAV files and then put them on an MP3 player to use as a live backing track which sounds ok. It means I can put effects on them first, pre mix them and just plug 'em into the PA. Non the less I was thinking of upgrading to something a bit more...real.

I don't have the money to get a really up market drum machine, so I'm thinking about getting an old Akai sampler (which can be found pretty cheaply on ebay, I was looking at something from the S series, possibly the S1000?), putting my favourite set of drum samples into that (taken from an Oberheim DMX, the Blue Monday machine) and then controlling it with some kind of midi controller.

Questions:

1. Does this sound like a reasonable upgrade from an MP3 backing track or just an expensive waste of time?

2. Can anyone recommend a decent, powerful, easy to use piece of software that I can program drum beats onto but then export as MIDI files to then play into the sampler. Acoustica Beatcraft (as described above costs about Â£30).

3. Assuming I get all this sorted, I am limited by the fact that it looks like your average sampler only holds about 8 samples (especially the cheaper older ones in my price range). If I want to add some unique, song specific samples into the mix that I don't have space for on my main sampler, can I somehow have an audio track that runs alongside the midi track but goes straight from the laptop into the desk (i.e whooshing sounds, reverse symbols etc which I've lined up at specific moment in specific songs).

4. Is using an Akai sampler as simple as burning your WAV drum samples onto a floppy disc and uploading them to the sampler or do you have to have special software and formats for it?

Thanks!

Izzy HaveMercy · 24 Dec 2009, 16:10

What's your budget Maisey? Keeping into account it is the Holiday season

I would never go back to sampler, you can buy a cheap laptop or use your own, run Ableton Live and buy yourself a Novation Remote or something.

Or buy what I did, a Roland SPD-S, but that's around the 500 euro mark...

IZ.

DocSommer · 24 Dec 2009, 17:04

Well I think it's always great to see oldschool equipment on stage.

I own an Akai S3000XL - bought it pretty cheap years ago just for fun but never figured out how to use it (ok, I didn't really spent much time with it). I'd recommend to download the manuals from akai and check these out to get an impression about the handling. If you have experience with creating music, midi and stuff it may not be that hard to become a friend with that unit, otherwise it could be a pain in the ass

I guess the XL3000 would be great for drum stuff thanks to the 8 single outputs - this may be handy for a better live mix. It's also possible to remote-control the unit but unfortunately the software doesn't support current OS and you'll need an SCSI interface.

Maisey · 24 Dec 2009, 17:25

Fancy selling your XL3000?

Maisey · 24 Dec 2009, 17:30

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:What's your budget Maisey? Keeping into account it is the Holiday season

I would never go back to sampler, you can buy a cheap laptop or use your own, run Ableton Live and buy yourself a Novation Remote or something.

Or buy what I did, a Roland SPD-S, but that's around the 500 euro mark...

IZ.

My budget is NIL. That's why I'm putting my setup together DIY rather than just using a full blown drum machine. What exactly does Ableton do? Will it fulfil the midi control aspect of my proposed rig?

I'm leaning towards more oldschool equipment because a) that's the sound I'm going for, b) it's often much cheaper and c) I like big clunky boxes that are built like tanks.

DocSommer · 24 Dec 2009, 18:28

Maisey wrote:Fancy selling your XL3000?

Nah - it's a nice decoration and someday I'm gonna get in to this stuff even if I already lost a bet that this will happen before the first grey hairs appear

These are popping up on ebay every now or then (the akai, not my hair of course^^) so it shouldn't be that hard to find a nice deal. I would set a target between 100-150â‚¬ depending on it's condition.

I forgot to mention that the LCD backlight is more or less non existent because AKAI used a illumination foil wich degenerate over the years. You'll need to replace it or use a racklight if there's not enough light in the room.

paul · 24 Dec 2009, 23:53

Izzy HaveMercy wrote: I would never go back to sampler, you can buy a cheap laptop or use your own, run Ableton Live and buy yourself a Novation Remote or something.
IZ.

Totally agree. Ableton Live is what we use as well. Easy to use and a great live tool.

Check the promo:
http://www.ableton.com/live-8-whats-new?a=whats_new

cheers,
Paul

Dr Poo · 25 Dec 2009, 01:30

add a Pie Taster on bass and you'll be the biggest goff band in the world!

Izzy HaveMercy · 25 Dec 2009, 10:47

paul wrote:
Izzy HaveMercy wrote: I would never go back to sampler, you can buy a cheap laptop or use your own, run Ableton Live and buy yourself a Novation Remote or something.
IZ.
Totally agree. Ableton Live is what we use as well. Easy to use and a great live tool.

Check the promo:
http://www.ableton.com/live-8-whats-new?a=whats_new

cheers,
Paul

Combine that with a MIDI comtroller supporting Automap 3 and Bob's yer aunt. If you have a lappie and use the trial version of ableton, a Novation Nocturn costs 100 euro or so...

Youtube vid from NAMM2009 showing Nocturn icw Ableton Live

Just wanted to add that AKAI manuals are very hard to find on the Net, the s1000 is, anyway

You don't need to follow Pauls and my advice of course Maisey, we just give a more modern and versatile, tho slightly more expensive alternative.

IZ.

DocSommer · 25 Dec 2009, 11:00

Just wanted to add that AKAI manuals are very hard to find on the Net, the s1000 is, anyway Wink

At least the english manuals are still available on akaipro:

http://www.akaipro.com/s1000
http://www.akaipro.com/s2000
http://www.akaipro.com/s3000

Izzy HaveMercy · 27 Dec 2009, 15:22

DocSommer wrote:
Just wanted to add that AKAI manuals are very hard to find on the Net, the s1000 is, anyway Wink
At least the english manuals are still available on akaipro:

http://www.akaipro.com/s1000
http://www.akaipro.com/s2000
http://www.akaipro.com/s3000

Should've clicked on Docs(ommer) and Downloads...

Saw 'discontinued' and jumped to hasty conclusions

IZ.

DocSommer · 27 Dec 2009, 18:58

Well I didn't really found a public link to that discontinued stuff so I just added the model names to the domain in this style: akaipro.com/Sxxxx

Like working with these units it's all a matter of trial & error I guess

Izzy HaveMercy · 27 Dec 2009, 21:40

DocSommer wrote:Well I didn't really found a public link to that discontinued stuff so I just added the model names to the domain in this style: akaipro.com/Sxxxx

Like working with these units it's all a matter of trial & error I guess

That's WHY I should have known in the first place!

IZ.

Jeremiah · 27 Dec 2009, 23:55

You might want to have a look at Reaper. You can download an unlimited demo that never expires, so you never actually *cough* have to pay for it. And if you do decide you want to buy the licence it costs a lot less than Ableton Live.

It's basically an audio/MIDI workstation, so it doesn't have the performance-specific features of Ableton, but unless you actually want to do things like changing the speed or pitch of samples in real time, you don't need them anyway.[/url]

Maisey · 28 Dec 2009, 00:59

All I'm really after is at the moment is a fairly powerful drum machine program that will come out of my laptop as MIDI in order to drive a sampler (as opposed to what I currently which is is output audio from my laptop directly into the desk).

This idea of a modern laptop/old sampler setup is something which I've worked out on paper, but never actually tested in reality so I'm not even sure it would actually work!

I appreciate the advice about Ableton but the whole purpose of using a sampler is to get a more retro sound (and to have some kit you can hold. Also I don't have any money at all really, but I can scrape together enough to get an old Akai, but I'm still not sure what of a good way to drive it.

What's the drum machine program on reaper like? Compared say acoustica, which is nice and visual and looks like so:

Izzy HaveMercy · 28 Dec 2009, 11:43

Maisey wrote:All I'm really after is at the moment is a fairly powerful drum machine program that will come out of my laptop as MIDI in order to drive a sampler (as opposed to what I currently which is is output audio from my laptop directly into the desk).

This idea of a modern laptop/old sampler setup is something which I've worked out on paper, but never actually tested in reality so I'm not even sure it would actually work!

I appreciate the advice about Ableton but the whole purpose of using a sampler is to get a more retro sound (and to have some kit you can hold. Also I don't have any money at all really, but I can scrape together enough to get an old Akai, but I'm still not sure what of a good way to drive it.

What's the drum machine program on reaper like?

So I take it that Acoustica BeatCraft does not support MIDI? REAPER in itself is a DAW (digital audio workstation), not only a drum program. Now I can't tell you how REAPER works, because I use Cubase SX3

But you can use REAPER together with, say, a drum VST (Battery, Drumagog, whatever...) and output the MIDI to the AKAI sampler.

I don't really see the use for an external sampler, TBH, only if you are going to use the looping and filter capabilities of it, and I prefer doing it with software nowadays...

IZ.

Maisey · 26 Apr 2010, 12:34

A bit of thread necro...

I recently came into possession of a Roland 707 (thanks; you know who you are!) - which is an awesome machine. It's great for programming and has excellent sounds to boot.

Only problem - it doesn't have enough memory to hold more than one song really, so other songs have to be saved to cassette. This is fine but it's not feasible to use the take to load of each song while playing live so...

What I now need is something I can output midi from the drum machine onto, save it alongside a bunch of other midi tracks and then input back into the drum machine in a live setting (thus essentially using the Roland as a midi instrument).

I'm still avoiding the big DAW programs because my laptop isn't very good for music stuff (slow soundcard, no MIDI port etc) and also because of cost reasons.

Is there any hardware that will allow me to do this easily? I guess I'm essentially looking for something like an MP3 player that plays MIDI files instead of audio! I'd like to be able to save a load of different midi tracks onto it (at least 10) and then hit play one at a time while on stage...[/b]

26 Apr 2010, 12:55

for gigging, the smurphs used a minidisc.

afaik, paddy would compile a disc containing audio tracks of their drum patterns for an entire set. he usually had 2 or 3 copies of this disc with him for backup...

combine that with other minidiscs that have all patterns for the other songs on and you can mix and match mid-set.

and you aren't relying on old kit for a live gig

as for capturing patterns, there must be some free, lightweight DAWs out there that can dump your patterns as midi files from the 707 to your pc, for later retrieval...

in fact, you'll probably find it easier and more flexible to write the patterns using the daw interface with the 707 midi'd up to it for playback, than using the 707's interface to program the patterns

easier control over individual instrument volume, quantizing, etc etc

and you can cut & paste all those signature sisters snare-rolls from the sisters midi files into your own tunes

i'm afraid i cant suggest any daws like that though - i tend to use logic 9 for most things these days

theparadox2010 · 26 Apr 2010, 14:03

I use Reason, its a pain in the arse to learn, but when you do, it works, its triggered by a evolution MK149 keyboard/midi trigger. I also have a zoom RT123, that really is a nice little drum machine, it has draw backs, but it works, and has some great "real" samples, also has midi in so P.C. etc can operate it, it plays two drum tracks at once, in stereo, and can also play bass, like a very famous band we do know......

26 Apr 2010, 14:11

aye, the violets use reason these days too.

at the homecoming gig they ran it straight from a laptop into the mixer

Norman Hunter · 26 Apr 2010, 14:47

How about this for controversy - get a drummer

...Waits for jokes to follow...

26 Apr 2010, 15:09

*mutters something about punching instructions into drummers more than once*

Norman Hunter · 26 Apr 2010, 15:34

Quiff Boy wrote:*mutters something about punching instructions into drummers more than once*

Aww, come on - you lot out there can muster up summat better than that!

In the meantime, Mister Tommy Lee;

Gotta be better than a ZX Spectrum plonking away behind you.

26 Apr 2010, 15:49

i think that photo would make a very good advert for drum machines

Norman Hunter · 26 Apr 2010, 15:54

Quiff Boy wrote:i think that photo would make a very good advert for drum machines

Heathens!

I'll never convince you lot, will I?