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A Rock And A Hard Place
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Jeremiah
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PostPost #1  Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: A Rock And A Hard Place Reply with quote Back to top

After about 20 years of listening to this, it has occurred to me that I still don't have a clue what he's actually singing in the two lines following "told me to follow her"

This was briefly mentioned in another thread somewhere, maybe someone could put me out of my misery


At least 3 sources on the net have "down from Igor with her bangles and her reference, swung from the church in the valley of the"

If so, please expand on the philosophical implications of why she needed a reference from Igor in the first place...


EDIT... oops, it looks like someone else has already answered this on the other thread
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PostPost #2  Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Which thread? There did not appear to be one for A Rock and a Hard Place here until you started one. We are not worthy! Was it Tidal's thread?
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PostPost #3  Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Nice questions nicely put....Ones which I shall go away and think about over a glass of Rioja. Mmmm... Razz
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PostPost #4  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Petseri wrote:
Which thread? There did not appear to be one for A Rock and a Hard Place here until you started one. We are not worthy! Was it Tidal's thread?


Actually I was thinking of the thread 'Jessie Foreigner's language failures,' in which A Rock and a Hard Place has been mentioned - including the bit about Igor.

Apparently the Igor/reference bit is correct according to Postcards from Above the Chemist; so is it definitely 100% canonical? I know it's official and everything, but while I don't own a copy myself, I have had a look through it and in some cases I'm doubtful of its accuracy. Can I be burned at the stake for doubting the words of the True Book?

It just seems unlikely for Mr Eldritch to write something that seems so obviously nonsensical (valley of the what?) and Igor certainly seems a bit out of place in this song (or anywhere in a Sisters song.)
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lazarus corporation
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PostPost #5  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Jeremiah wrote:
It just seems unlikely for Mr Eldritch to write something that seems so obviously nonsensical (valley of the what?) and Igor certainly seems a bit out of place in this song (or anywhere in a Sisters song.)


Quote:
"down from Igor with her bangles and her reference, one from the church in the valley of the hurricane"


The final word is audible on one of the demo versions, and is transcribed in one of the lyric books I picked up about 20 years ago (not an official lyric book, I hasten to add)

I presume it was dropped out of the final version because it didn't allow Eldritch to get his breath before the next line.

I know - it still doesn't help to work out what the hell he was on about. I always presumed it was a Floorshow-like dig at some of the denizens of the Leeds clubs he frequented whose clothes & makeup met with his disapproval (i.e. they looked like they'd walked off the set of a Hammer Horror film).

Of course, if the aforementioned denizens were female and attractive he didn't hesitate to divest them of the aforementioned clothes given the chance, as the song relates...
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PostPost #6  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

That actually makes sense. But I suppose Igor could be a real person.

So what is the missing word? That might be the key to unlocking this particular mystery. Or it might be a load of old tosh.
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PostPost #7  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

stufarq wrote:
That actually makes sense. But I suppose Igor could be a real person.

So what is the missing word? That might be the key to unlocking this particular mystery. Or it might be a load of old tosh.


the missing word is "hurricane" (see my post above)

EDIT: no it isn't (see below!)
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Last edited by lazarus corporation on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPost #8  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Could you share the demo please?
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lazarus corporation
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PostPost #9  Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

[after a good twenty minutes rifling through my dodgy old collection of cassette tapes...]

It's track 2 of the bootleg "Black Dominion", listed as "A Rock... (Original Mix)" - sounds like a demo with a sequenced (and flanged) bass. (clicky)

You know, having listened to it anew (I haven't listened to this tape for about 20 years!) the word isn't "hurricane". Damned if I can make out what the hell it is, though.

I only have it on tape, but I'm sure a HLer somewhere will have a decent CD version.
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PostPost #10  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

it's pinched from john cale isn't it
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PostPost #11  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

paint it black wrote:
it's pinched from john cale isn't it


John Cale as in "Song of the Valley"? That could mean that the original lyrics was "...one from the church and the valley of the [song]".

But the Cale album came out late 1985 so...
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PostPost #12  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Disregarding the mystery word for a moment, It has just occurred to me that we could simply be splitting the lines wrong:

So instead of

One from the church in the valley of the
Well she wanted a haven and a place to hide

It could be

One from the church in the valley of the well
She wanted a haven and a place to hide

What do you think?
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PostPost #13  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

flakk13 wrote:
paint it black wrote:
it's pinched from john cale isn't it


John Cale as in "Song of the Valley"? That could mean that the original lyrics was "...one from the church and the valley of the [song]".

But the Cale album came out late 1985 so...


from my failing memory...

down from Bangor with her... most obvious Igor is Stravinsky cant be bothered to think why he may or may not be being referenced

Quote:
The Church knew what the psalmist knew: Music praises God. Music is well or better able to praise him than the building of the church and all its decoration; it is the Church's greatest ornament."

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PostPost #14  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

paint it black wrote:
flakk13 wrote:
paint it black wrote:
it's pinched from john cale isn't it


John Cale as in "Song of the Valley"? That could mean that the original lyrics was "...one from the church and the valley of the [song]".

But the Cale album came out late 1985 so...


from my failing memory...

down from Bangor with her... most obvious Igor is Stravinsky cant be bothered to think why he may or may not be being referenced

Quote:
The Church knew what the psalmist knew: Music praises God. Music is well or better able to praise him than the building of the church and all its decoration; it is the Church's greatest ornament."

if thats the case then it maybe sounds like stravinsky was someone who eldritch must have heard of around about 1984

http://www.time.com/time/time100/artists/profile/stravinsky.html

Quote:
Paris' Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, on May 29, 1913, was the setting of the most notorious event in the musical history of this century — the world premiere of The Rite of Spring. Trouble began with the playing of the first notes, in the ultrahigh register of the bassoon, as the renowned composer Camille Saint-Saens conspicuously walked out, complaining loudly of the misuse of the instrument. Soon other protests became so loud that the dancers could barely hear their cues. Fights broke out in the audience. Thus Modernism arrived in music, its calling card delivered by the 30-year-old Russian composer Igor Stravinsky.


the idea of modernism in music surely appealed to a young and slightly pretentious eldritch Wink

and

Quote:
Over the years, Stravinsky experimented with virtually every technique of 20th century music: tonal, polytonal and 12-tone serialism.


if he did discover stravinsky in 1984, it kinda co-incides with the 'wide receiver' track in which eldritch was mucking about after discovering guitar harmonics (according to herr marx)

stravinsky also wrote "The Rake's Progress" - maybe eldritch identified with the rake? Laughing
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PostPost #15  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

nicely played sir... We are not worthy! We are not worthy!

i guess siouxsie is too obvious as the chick with the bangles Laughing Laughing - thinks nocturne or whatever tour 1983 Wink
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PostPost #16  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rake%27s_Progress

The story concerns the decline and fall of one Tom Rakewell, who deserts Anne Trulove for the delights of London in the company of Nick Shadow, who turns out to be the Devil. After several misadventures, all initiated by the devious Shadow, Tom ends up in Bedlam, a psychatric hospital south of London. The moral of the tale is: "For idle hearts and hands and minds the Devil finds a work to do."

swap london for leeds and anne for claire Laughing
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PostPost #17  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

lazarus corporation wrote:
the missing word is "hurricane" (see my post above)

Oops, sorry! Thought you were quoting a previous post and didn't read it (cos I'd have read it already).

Jeremiah wrote:
It could be

One from the church in the valley of the well
She wanted a haven and a place to hide

What do you think?

I think the emphasis when he sings it is way off for that to work. He could fit "well" into the rhythm of the first line and then take a breath before the next line if that was the meaning. Worth a try though.


Last edited by stufarq on Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPost #18  Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Anyone else got Black Dominion who can listen to the version of the song on that bootleg and work out the missing word (which ain't missing on that version)?
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PostPost #19  Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quiff Boy wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rake%27s_Progress

The story concerns the decline and fall of one Tom Rakewell, who deserts Anne Trulove for the delights of London in the company of Nick Shadow, who turns out to be the Devil. After several misadventures, all initiated by the devious Shadow, Tom ends up in Bedlam, a psychatric hospital south of London. The moral of the tale is: "For idle hearts and hands and minds the Devil finds a work to do."

swap london for leeds and anne for claire Laughing



I wonder who may have played the role of Nick Shadow in this case...
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PostPost #20  Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I've always thought it was "Bangles and rings"
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PostPost #21  Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

originalgoth wrote:
I've always thought it was "Bangles and rings"

I always heard "bangles and her ribbons." Damn that line! Laughing I just imagined the girl being this young, ditsy type who has no idea what's coming to her, re: Von's character's intentions and him leaving her there that night. He could only put up with giving her an alibi and taking her inside so long.

I also hear "Sworn from the church," or "stole from the church."
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PostPost #22  Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

To necro this thread after a long time - it's just occurred to me that maybe "reference" is actually "reverence" which might make more sense... Question
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PostPost #23  Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I've always sang it as reverence. It's seemed more... Logical to me Cool Laughing
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PostPost #24  Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that "down from Igor with her bangles and her reference" is a mangled literary reference. It's an old thread so it could very well have been mentioned in another thread.

As for Black Dominions, I dug my tape out to see what it's "the valley of" and ir's very indistinct. It's 3 syllables, first 2 syllables sound like "horror" and the 3rd syllable is quieter, sounds like "uh". Laughing It's not hurricane though. Horror place? Orifice? Confused Laughing
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PostPost #25  Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well, if Wayne had a hand in it, orifice may be the one.

Laughing
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