Heartland

Referring to this,

May I add to the turmoil by mentioning Burzum's joining Heartland spawned part of my decision for quitting this place?
-With a close friend of mine being a metal dj I was well aware of who those nutters are.

So, Burzum, I don't want to add to the discomfort you doubtlessly feel now. I just want to make you aware, that without intention you most likely caused discomfort in others, dummkopf being the only to voice his concern.
And, may I add, changing your screen name might make Heartland a somewhat nicer place for others (again).

markfiend wrote:It's none of anybody's damn business what username someone chooses.

Mark, no offense meant, but to put that statement of yours to the test (by yourself) I considderred making a new account here, using a name like Adolf Hitler, ChildAbuseIsFun or XiaoLinHandbags.
Thinking about it, you know very well that there are limits to tolerance.

To explain the problem I had with those days:
Burzum joined in 2007. That was about the time a member of this site, that was a most highly cherrished and dear friend of mine at that time got interested in a band called Allerseelen.
I usually tend to take a look at what the folks I feel close to like, in the best of cases to add to the range of my preferences. In that case, I backed away in disgust.
They sang (Or rather rapped over pishpoor dull electro noise):

Gib mir Kraft ein Leben lang/Durch Kampf und Sieg und Untergang

(Give me strength throughout my life/Through fighting, victory and perdition)
You might just as well sing a Horst Wessel Lied or some other stuff from SA/SS "traditionals".
While officially neglecting being right wing extremists, the singer of that band repeatedly wrote articles for hardcore neonazi magazines.
Now you are left to your own devices with deciding what to make of these people, are they what they claim to be or are they what they look like?

Next another member of this very forum developed a taste for Der Blutharsch, another Neofolk band that denies perpetuating right wing ideology, but using the very symbolism and aesthetics of the far right. The realy, realy far right.
The Myspace site of that one said Heartlander soon looked like a second grade Third Reich Memorial, and it sounded of Gleichschritt.

Those really gave me a hard time here, and back then only the context of this forum and knowing these people through daily online contact here stopped me from making that a topic and demand public explanations.
Not least of my silence about those things was that you, Mark, are known to me as a straightforward Nazi repelant. I remember how you reacted when you found out a major BNP member frequented an office near yours. With you knowing those heartlander well better than me and having insight in who and what they are, I felt of remaining calm and trust in in the general decency of those folks as safe.
Nevertheless, since they started their neofolk involvement, I got friend requests from shitloads of obvious Nazis on Myspace, which leads to the obvious problem with tolerating or imitating Nazi's aesthetics:
You attract Nazis.
With that my own Myspace site, which used to be my space, where I just introduced myself to the few that might be interested in me, turned into this here is not a Nazi space.

That's why I keep a good distance from Neofolk in general (for that genre failed to defend itself against Nazis, unlike Black Metal in general, with exceptions like that band "Burzum") and can only feel disgust in face of the millitaria look that became fassionable in the recent years for the goff scene. Bands like Der Blutharsch or Feindflug are to be held responsible if the goff scene gets to become a partyground for Nazis.
It's not the very thing, it's the smell of shit that attracts flies.

I hope to have added a bit to the solution of the conflict here. Dummkopf and [Heartlander currently known as Burzum, who seems to be a decent bloke despite that unfortunate nic], I hope you two will make peace over a beer at some gig of the best band of them all, which this here forum is about.

What I'd like to add:
Mark, I remember telling you in a PM/mail about the trouble I had here, with anonymous phone calls, finding the door of my flat open when comming home from work, having gotten a forum login of a germany based guitarists forum hacked etc.
Adding to that a lass from the neighbourhood suddenly sought for contact with me. In close temporary context with those Nazi requests on Myspace. Then, some day, she confessed her resenment against jews to me. I as well learnt, that an inhabitant of this house was a member of an autonomous Nazi group. One mile down the river that passes the house here, there's a kiosk next to a boat rental. If you want to see skinheads of the right wing kind, just drop in there.
I am left to guessing where all the trouble back then came from, and if there was a connection between them. But it is the only sense I can make of the things, that this was the case.
Heartland is not in a space of fiction, it's in the very real Internet, that gets used by actual people. Some of them may get actual trouble through the web.
I guess there's a 60 to 70% chance this was the case here.

That's why, Burzum, I think you'd be well advised to get that nickname changed. As you see, it arouses wrong assumptions about you.

I felt this had to be said, even if that thread got locked. Sue me for it.

Jums over and out.

color me green in all this folks, I see no Nazis on HL now or ever, chill out Jurgen FFS

James Blast wrote:color me green in all this folks, I see no Nazis on HL now or ever, chill out Jurgen FFS

Re-read what I wrote there, then answer, James.

Don't go bashing dummkopf for his (admittedly rather undiplomatic) criticism like that. He had a point, which I tried to explain above.

And guess what I mean by a nickname that leads to wrong assumptions.

Okay, said my bit. Those things I felt I had to add.
(Damn, I just realize I have to edit more spelling errors. That's what you get from using a foreign language as little, hm?)
Me, I go back to where I spent the last two years. So long!

I read it twice before I replied dude, and your Wiki linky doesn't work, get yer act together man

and Yeah, goodbye!

Sorted.

Bye.

bye, make sure the door doesn't hit ye oan thi erse oan yir way oot

In light of all this, I've got to ask:

Mark, can I change my username to El Molestro?

Hi there eotunun,
I'm kinda new in this forum, so I don't know the story about those Heartlanders from 2 years ago, and I was lucky enough not to get in to any situation with nazis like you did up until now (which is surprising, since I wear my Hebrew clothes with much pride wherever I go), but as an Israeli-Jew, I'm kinda careful with calling others Nazis. I think that the word has been overused so much, it kinda lost it's meaning. Whenever a group seams different, maybe have a "scary" look, they are being called nazis and should be banned. As a former "freak", me and my friends used to be called nazis all the time, no matter we were all Jews living in Israel :.P
One of my favorite bands, is a Ukrainian band named Shmely. When I started listening to them there were a lot of rumors about them being nazis and many people I know banned them for it. But I can say for myself, after contacting them, they are amazing! Not only that they are no nazis, they were very happy to know that they have fans in Israel and they even sent me a huge goody bag :.)
Now I've never heard that band Burzum before. Up until reading the whole thread today- I never knew they existed. From reading on Wiki, yeah- the guy's probably not a nice one, he did kill someone and torched some churches (nothing about synagogues though :.P ), rather he's a nazi or just another kind of low life- I don't know, but maybe the Hearlander with that nick didn't know / cared about what the guy's doing on his free time and he just likes the music? Maybe in his music you can hear something else other then hatred to others?
The guys here gave a great example of Gary Glitter- I don't think that being a pedophile is any better then being a nazi, but hey- we all still love his music!
I don't believe that any fan of The Sisters could really be a nazi, and since I come from that opening point, I would not take other people's nicknames so badly. In general, I try not to take stuff from internet forums so badly, not very good to ones health. ;.)

I love my name.....

(That said i do see dummkopfs point (not that I have anything against Burzum))

Two years & you come back to pick an argument?

I don't think I know/have met Burzum, dummkopf or eotunun. I've not heard of the band Burzum and I'm willing to bet neither have the majority of people here because, lets be fair, they're going to be extremely niche at best....

Anyway, I look at at everyone's previous posts and can't see anything inflammatory but I am curious because its obviously a sensitive subject. If someone has a dubious username then call them on it, there's no harm in that - its not a given name after all , they chose it for themselves so should be be able to explain why they chose it.

Threatening to ban people for asking questions, really?

czuczu wrote:I don't think I know/have met Burzum, dummkopf or eotunun. I've not heard of the band Burzum and I'm willing to bet neither have the majority of people here because, lets be fair, they're going to be extremely niche at best....

Anyway, I look at at everyone's previous posts and can't see anything inflammatory but I am curious because its obviously a sensitive subject. If someone has a dubious username then call them on it, there's no harm in that - its not a given name after all , they chose it for themselves so should be be able to explain why they chose it.

Threatening to ban people for asking questions, really?

Gollum's Cock wrote:

czuczu wrote: its not a given name after all , they chose it for themselves so should be be able to explain why they chose it.

Threatening to ban people for asking questions, really?

You just want someone to ask you don't you?

I'm hoping its literal.
Must take ages to type anything

czuczu wrote: Threatening to ban people for asking questions, really?

What would you think if you logged in one morning and found a whole topic about you?

If there was a thread about me, particularly my username in this context, I'd be surprised.
But I'd reply.
We're grown-ups.
Aren't we?

czuczu wrote:If there was a thread about me, particularly my username in this context, I'd be surprised.
But I'd reply.
We're grown-ups.
Aren't we?

Yeah, sure! He or she did reply, anyway.

"Hey, the band who's name you're using are connected with some dodgy politics".
"Yeah, their politics stink but I also just happen to like their music".
"Oh, OK".

That's more or less where it should have started and ended IMO. I didn't see the need to call someone out on it publicly either; PMs would have done if you had a concern.

Yeah, the whole thing can be a sensitive issue, and I can appreciate that use of certain words/phrases can make some feel uncomfortable. But in an international community with lots of different people from lots of different backgrounds that's only to be expected. While folks should certainly show some sensitivity it's also totally unreasonable to expect everyone to be going around treading on eggshells terrified of who they might offend next with what seems to them to be a reasonably innocuous choice of phrase. The devil is in getting the balance right.

Pista wrote:Two years & you come back to pick an argument?

But I find it shocking that people leave HL because they feel they have some Nazi repercussions due to being here ... ...
*of course I know that you and I as well as many others here are quite sensible about this issue as well ...

Insofar it might really be better to pose a few "wrong" questions with maybe even a bad strategy or to contribute "one's five pence" and talk with each other about any such questions to clear things up ...

Also, I remember The Sisters had some repercussions in that direction as well. It's not for nothing they released their Sisters Gegen Nazis patch as every UTR reader should be able to recall ...

Maybe that was mainly an issue in Germany, where for some time in the 1990ies, it was not easy for any band to clarify their distance from that scene as German politics and media in general were moving ever more right-wing (until the 1998 elections) in order to prepare cut-downs in "social" cost and wages while slandering beforehand the potentially concerned ...


@ mh
Yeah, that's, IMHO, exactly what happened in summary ... not more and not less ...
but anyway, you can't get the balance right if nobody is prepared to put something in it ... ...

Salome wrote:Hi there eotunun,
I'm kinda new in this forum, so I don't know the story about those Heartlanders from 2 years ago,

I'm not new and I don't know the story about those Heartlanders either, not that ignorance is an excuse mind you. However, I will say that some people are really daft when it comes to the Internet - they say and do ridiculous things and give out personal information willynilly.

What read on a Monday morning...

Hello J, long time no see.
....and goodbye, obviously.

Debaser wrote: However, I will say that some people are really daft when it comes to the Internet - they say and do ridiculous things and give out personal information willynilly.

Well, if anybody gives such private information over the internet, then it's their own fault if somebody uses this information against them. But this information could be used by anybody reading it, not necessarily members of this forum, which is open for anybody to read. People should keep it in mind that this is not a closed group, that anybody could read anything written here and check out personal profiles. It's the same anywhere on the net and if someone don't know about internet safety, they shouldn't blame what happens to them on the forum or the members in it.
However, as I said before- I don't know what really happened there, so I don't know if it's at all relevant :.P

mh wrote:"Hey, the band who's name you're using are connected with some dodgy politics".
"Yeah, their politics stink but I also just happen to like their music".
"Oh, OK".

That's more or less where it should have started and ended IMO.

In retrospect I think I was wrong to lock that topic and FWIW I did type this in haste and without a lot of thought:

I wrote:It's none of anybody's damn business what username someone chooses.

So...

I don't thing we'd let someone to register with a username of "Kill the N****rs" for example... but how about one of "Kill the Fascists"?

There are plenty of users already here with usernames that some might find offensive. Offence is in the eye of the beholder. Sure we want to avoid giving deliberate offence, but there are some who will be offended by anything. This isn't the first time we've had to deal with the issue of censorship on HL and it's a very difficult call to make.

IMO the time to complain about someone's user name is surely when they arrive? Not three-and-a-half years later. And it seemed to me that dummkopf wasn't "just asking questions" he publically accused Burzum of being a neo-nazi, on only the flimsiest of evidence, and not just once.

On a personal level, I do find the politics of people like Varg Vikerness (and from what little I know about it, the neo-folk movement) absolutely repellent, but IMO if the only way we can defeat fascism is by silencing the fascists then the cure is worse than the disease. Any society that starts down the road of "this you must not hear, this you cannot see, this you may not know" is well on the way to tyranny. And I for one refuse to use the fascists' own weapons against them.

And again, if people don't want to listen to me...

Eldritch wrote:I think the great lesson of the 20th century is that you have to separate the ethics from the aesthetics. The Nazis did have the best uniforms, there's no denying it. The great lesson there is that you don't have to agree with what the Nazis did, but, yes, be honest about it, they did have the best uniforms. A lot of people can't come to terms with something as banal as that. They can't admit it, because somehow they feel like they're approving of what the Nazis did.

Those Nazi uniforms were made by Hugo Boss. Are we going to start throwing accusations of fascism around at people who wear nice suits?

Gollum's Cock wrote:

czuczu wrote:I don't think I know/have met Burzum, dummkopf or eotunun. I've not heard of the band Burzum and I'm willing to bet neither have the majority of people here because, lets be fair, they're going to be extremely niche at best....

Anyway, I look at at everyone's previous posts and can't see anything inflammatory but I am curious because its obviously a sensitive subject. If someone has a dubious username then call them on it, there's no harm in that - its not a given name after all , they chose it for themselves so should be be able to explain why they chose it.

Threatening to ban people for asking questions, really?

Seconded.