Heartland

Hi folks, I don't know if this subject has already been covered here...
the unreleased songs' rights have been registered in Germany with
GEMA rights society, including composer's details...
Online.gema.de/werke/searchArea.do

"Crash And Burn"
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27991197&title=CRASH+AND+BURN&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam Pearson
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: EMI Songs Ltd.
- GEMA work no.: 5586049-001

"Romeo Down"
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27991198&title=ROMEO+DOWN&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam Pearson
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: EMI Songs Ltd.
- GEMA work no.: 5586081-001

"Summer"
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27991199&title=SUMMER&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam Pearson
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: EMI Songs Ltd.
- GEMA work no.: 5586096-001


"Susanne" (note the spelling)
(alternate title: "We Are The Same")
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27991200&title=SUSANNE&pdf=false
- Composer: Michael Varjak
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: SBK Songs Ltd.
- GEMA work no.: 5586114-001

"Will I Dream" (note: no question mark in the title)
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27941000&title=WILL+I+DREAM&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam Pearson, Michael Varjak
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: EMI Songs Ltd.
- GEMA work no.: 5586138-001

"Top Nite Out"
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27210155&title=TOP+NITE+OUT&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam John Pearson
- Instrumentation: 1 computer, 1 acoustic bass guitar, 1 guitar
- duration: 3:10 min
- Publisher: Arabella/Wolffsongs
- GEMA work no.: 8035128-001


"Slept"
(alternate title: "I Have Slept With All Girls In Berlin")
Online.gema.de/werke/detailPage.do?dbkey=27227330&title=SLEPT&pdf=false
- Composer: Adam Pearson
- Author: Andrew Eldritch
- Publisher: Arabella/Wolffsongs
- GEMA work no.: 9086094-001

Cool. So the lyrics to Susanne were written by Eldritch after all, which is nice to know although the style is of course familiar. (the Moor mystery continues to linger. Maybe he was the cameraman for that video.)

do we know when they registered, 'cause this site does not include that info ?

Will they be changing the registered title of Top Nite Out every few nights?

As most of us suspected with Adam part of the equation these songs will most probably never see a proper release.I hope i'm wrong

Bartek wrote:do we know when they registered, 'cause this site does not include that info ?

No idea unfortunately, the dates would have been interesting...

stufarq wrote:Will they be changing the registered title of Top Nite Out every few nights?

I found it interesting that Pearson handed in a demo of the song...

damagedone wrote:As most of us suspected with Adam part of the equation these songs will most probably never see a proper release.I hope i'm wrong

Afaik the GEMA has only authority in germany (I'd prefer any other country, haha^^) and no international influence. Usually I'd say that musicians shouldn't be able to keep any kind of veto-rights due to their part of the work within a band if they aren't part of it anymore by own decision. I also wouldn't granted any kind of financial advantages. If I work for a company and decide to drop the job I also don't get anything for my input - therefore I must get fired for no legally relevant reasons so I can claim for compensations.

There also might be contracts between andrew and his hired hands taking account for these kind of szenarios. Hard to tell what's really going on there...

there is a chance that those songs were registered when this marriage was happy but, because we don't know that so it's, again or as always with this band, just a speculation. but, that doesn't mean that your concerns aren't valid.

DocSommer wrote:

damagedone wrote:As most of us suspected with Adam part of the equation these songs will most probably never see a proper release.I hope i'm wrong

Afaik the GEMA has only authority in germany (I'd prefer any other country, haha^^) and no international influence. Usually I'd say that musicians shouldn't be able to keep any kind of veto-rights due to their part of the work within a band if they aren't part of it anymore by own decision. I also wouldn't granted any kind of financial advantages. If I work for a company and decide to drop the job I also don't get anything for my input - therefore I must get fired for no legally relevant reasons so I can claim for compensations.

There also might be contracts between andrew and his hired hands taking account for these kind of szenarios. Hard to tell what's really going on there...

It's a creative product, though. That's different from a spreadsheet, or even a logo. I have no problem with his having a veto right on a release of material that he wrote or co-wrote. Seems fair and just to me. The bigger question, perhaps, is why he would stand in the way of a release. While a member of the band, he could make a legitimate case that a given format or opportunity for release is less lucrative than it otherwise could be, and therefore he might refuse, in the belief that something better is in the near future (we could mention hands and bushes, but won't). Once he has left the band, it would seem that he has no incentive to stand in the way of the release: nobody is going to buy the songs from him; he's not doing anything with them; and lastly, whatever revenue they do generate would be a nice supplement to his income as a - what is he, some sort of psychotherapist for businessmen or something?

what is he, some sort of psychotherapist for businessmen or something?

more some kind of esoteric guru iirc

Like I say I don't know if these scenarios has been considered within a contract(s). Bot Andrew and Adam aren't stupid and giving Von's experiences he made in the past I could imagine that he was able to take account for this.

It's a creative product, though.

Other jobs can be creative as well (research, design..) - still it's not common that you can take your work or major rights with you in case you leave the company by own decision, especially if you're not a founder.

Fodderstompf wrote:I found it interesting that Pearson handed in a demo of the song...

Who says he did? He doesn't need to supply a demo for the song to be protected. A demo needn't even exist. He just has to have written it.

DocSommer wrote:Other jobs can be creative as well (research, design..) - still it's not common that you can take your work or major rights with you in case you leave the company by own decision, especially if you're not a founder.

Doesn't work that way for music. He wasn't an employee who wrote the material as part of his normal employment. He owns the full or joint music copyright and licences his publishers to deal with recording rights on his behalf. Nine times out of ten, the writers just leave the publishers to handle that and, basically, anyone who can pay the required fee can record the material, the recording then becoming the property of whoever bankrolled it (eg the record company). But the writer always has the power to deny rights if they want to. Why they would choose to in anoother matter as it's a source of income but if they're unhappy with the material or have an issue with whoever wants to make the recording (as when Oasis refused to let the Smurfs record Wonderwall) then they might do it. (I suppose it's possible that Adam objects to the lyrics, which are usually protected under separate copyright.) If Adam's stopping Von from recording the songs then he'd likely have had to issue an instruction to his publishers so that they'd know. But permission is required from all copyright holders (ie composers/lyricists via their publishers) for a song or any other creative work to be exploited.

But then, does Von really have an interest in releasing these songs? That's a whole other debate that we've had many times but it seems unlikely - and impractical - that Adam would block him whereas Von hasn't released any of the songs that Adam didn't write either.

Heaven knows what are the reasons ... probably some agreement ...

Looking at the GEMA work numbers, I think the first five of these songs were registered between 1997 - 1999 when Varjak was in the band,
but why not Come Together and War On Drugs? Maybe they were all designed to be the next official Sisters' album after EastWest ...

Top Nite Out and Slept followed some time later ... these were first performed after 2003 ...
perhaps the next vain hope for some release ... and for Adam - maybe the last attempt ...

As to veto-rights ... IMHO, making music and making a living of it is surely not like any kind of "job".
I might seem naive, but doesn't it take at least some sort of trust and understanding to get something
done that is more than just disco-gaga ... or, wasn't that at least what The Sisters had always intended to do?

And honestly, whatever today's standards of capitalist commerce - if I had a band and had played, written songs,
travelled the world together with someone for almost a decade ... I would never come to the idea to release these
songs as my official band produce when this person were gone. Sorry, no. Not even if I were allowed to
- just a question of tact and taste.

Well, basically at least. With The Sisters nothing works out like normal, though.
And nowadays, as these songs is mostly what they have been playing live ever since Adam left
and as they also have somewhat elaborated them exactly by playing them live ... ok, that might
perhaps change the situation by now ... because they kept to these songs and made something of them ...
and because there is the audience, the fanbase, we ... who dearly dream of some release like of a wonder ... *sigh ...

But then, does Von really have an interest in releasing these songs?

Does he have an interest in releasing any songs?

Giving this situation and the case it's true I can do nothing more than agree with that it's obviously more fun recording for non-public purposes or playing stuff live than actually releasing it and getting pissed of by 3rd parties (including former band members).

if I had a band and had played, written songs,
travelled the world together with someone for almost a decade ... I would never come to the idea to release these
songs as my official band produce when this person were gone. Sorry, no. Not even if I were allowed to

What's the moral difference between releasing this "old material" or continue playing it live and even modifying it with new band lineup?

The sisters are probably a special case because other bands do usually release their stuff before split-up's or band members leaving...

However, I think it's an unusual behaviour if band would refuse to play or release any songs just because a band member who added creative knowhow has left the band due to other future plans. One might think about not playing specific songs or splitting up the band in case of a death tragedy but usually I don't see the need to treat things different here.

Putting aside all attempts to talk about morality/ethics in the same breath as "record companies", this is how the law works:

The composer of a song has the right under law to decide who will record the first version of that song. This is called "first issue rights" or "premiere rights".

Possibly the most famous use of this law involved a recording of "Mr. Tambourine Man" by Bob Dylan. Dylan had played the song at a gig at a festival, which has been recorded. Dylan's record company (Columbia) wanted to release the gig, but Dylan wasn't happy with it for some reason. Unfortunately Dylan's record contract at the time didn't allow him any veto on what was released. So Dylan used his first issue rights to refuse to grant Columbia the license to release the first version of "Mr. Tambourine Man" and the album was stopped.

This also means that the various song composers within the Sisters could use their first issue rights to stop other bands releasing cover versions of new Sisters songs that have not yet had official releases.

(Once a song has been officially released then it's a completely different legal situation)

stufarq wrote:

Fodderstompf wrote:I found it interesting that Pearson handed in a demo of the song...

Who says he did? He doesn't need to supply a demo for the song to be protected. A demo needn't even exist. He just has to have written it.

Presumably because it says "duration: 3:10 min" for that one so there's an assumption that some sort of recording was handed in.

Someone who works for the band said there's only one person to blame, and it's not Adam. Adam is now a motivational speaker/counselor who helps people get over their self-imposed barriers, I wonder why? This is stupid. I'm so weary with this asinine situation. Alas, it's not my situation, yet I'm just as entitled to find it completely asinine as someone else is to defend the stupidity, excuses, evasiveness and s**t. So go ahead, fire away, defend this nonsense all you want. I'm sure there are demo versions, btw. Probably on MiniDisc or DAT, and AE would bring it with him and play it for the person in question - but never relinquish a copy. That's what I would do, anyways.

Prescott wrote:Someone who works for the band said there's only one person to blame, and it's not Adam. Adam is now a motivational speaker/counselor who helps people get over their self-imposed barriers, I wonder why? This is stupid. I'm so weary with this asinine situation. Alas, it's not my situation, yet I'm just as entitled to find it completely asinine as someone else is to defend the stupidity, excuses, evasiveness and s**t. So go ahead, fire away, defend this nonsense all you want. I'm sure there are demo versions, btw. Probably on MiniDisc or DAT, and AE would bring it with him and play it for the person in question - but never relinquish a copy. That's what I would do, anyways.

I wonder - is there any working artist who has more contempt for their fanbase than AE? There's George Lucas, I guess, but I don't think making a brace of s**t movies in the last ten odd years was deliberate... he just doesn't have what it takes any more. Whereas with Von... we count ourselves lucky that he still tours and that the material is tight, but way old (save Arms, but even that's getting a bit long in the tooth now, and isn't exactly Mozart). But should we? Would it actually be better for us if AE stopped touring altogether, let us grieve and move on? Yes, no-one forces us to keep following the Sisters, but I wonder if it's time we all really did show AE that we've basically felt the p*ss has been taken out of us long enough. Those of you who disagree, I respect your position, and would never have something taken away from you that contributes to your happiness, but I think we're being had.

Marky Marky and All Saints can you close this theard? I mean all information ended on like 13th post and even then was that stupid grudges, complaints and grieves but as we see now it's turning onto SAMO scheme.
Thanks in advance.

p.s.
i know that no-one will force me to keep following this thread but, it's just stupid; not longer than one week ago there was minor necro-threading by very same person who start doing the same here.

You know what'so dd?

War on Drugs isn't listed on the GEMA website, but it's on BMI.
http://is.gd/ulpLxi

You know what's even odd?
http://is.gd/beLiSZ

This.
A Lot of Songs that i don't even heard before writed by Von.
(Like Back in Town, London etc...)

all the songs we don't recognise seem to have been written with these people:

PETER CAMERON HEMSLEY - http://is.gd/7Jdge5
GORDON INGRAM - http://is.gd/wekWF2
GRAHAM RICHARD PAUL INGRAM - http://is.gd/wUSZCQ

it appears that none of these people are anything to do with any of the songs we know, so either that's a different "ANDREW WILLIAM HARVEY TAYLOR" or he's done another secret side project

"paris riots" anyone?

and nice to see that craig adams gets mentioned for his involvement in Temple of Love on the film and fashion show that it was used in:

CRAIG DAVID ADAMS
http://is.gd/nKwWvw

FASHION ROCKS 2006-BG CUES
http://is.gd/tKhhLG

GEGEN DIE WAND-BG CUES
http://is.gd/QSn0dC

that's quite an interesting site to dig around really

sorry to disappoint...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6fvcnGoK2E

And here it's another Von credited work
http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebre ... 4130&SID=1


Meanwhile, we have two different registers of Susanne in ASCAP

http://www.ascap.com/ace/search.cfm?req ... 25&start=1

http://www.ascap.com/ace/search.cfm?req ... 25&start=1

ahh, the jazz devils

so a different andy taylor:

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Jazz+Devils

Andy Taylor (Vocals / Harmonica), Graham Ingram (Keyboards / Bass), and Peter Hemsley (Drums / Percussion).

thanks for clearing that up.

Very interesting!

It's A Crime can even be found on Discogs ... released 1988 ... ...



EDIT:
Aha, as this is also by The Jazz Devils the list on that website does not seem to be exactly accurate ... ... ...