Heartland

I mean -really?

I don't know if "we" can really do anything, but I really like the idea of not calling them anything involving "Islam", "state", or an acronym that looks like an Egyptian goddess/drone metal band.
I read that French media have taken to calling them "Daesh", which apparently enrages the fuckers because it's a dirty word or something. It's a good start.

whatever we call them -and i'm sure they care less about being called a swear word or a hippy deity - i don't think we as individuals have much say. i just wanted to address the "elephant in the room" -something that is a rarity on HL.

sorry -just realised that not offering an opinion myself looks like trolling, which is not my intention. i actually dont know where i stand, betweeen knowing that what they are doing is wrong and not being able to think of a response that i think is "right".

Yeah, I think my knee-jerk reaction would be "hang them up by their balls" but that's not really feasible.
And bombing the hell out of any region they've overrun just puts uninvolved people/geography/wildlife at risk (also, I am kinda a pacifist so I can't go round saying stuff like "bomb the hell out of them", no matter how easy of a solution that seems).

The only thing we can do about [them] is to make them unattractive to the people who are willing to drop everything and take up arms in their defence. We need to address the divisions in society which make people think that fighting for [them] is a good idea - Muslims in Britain have it a lot easier than those in some other non-Islamic countries, but there is a worrying trend, firebrand imams are whipping up an anti-western sentiment among (especially) young muslim men. This is relatively new, and we need to establish why it is happening, at least why these people getting so much traction these days. When I was a yoof the muslim kids I kicked around with wouldn't have considered going off to wage jihad - most of them considered themselves English first, and everything else a distant second.

We should also consider what has made [them] successful, and sadly it is our own doing. We've left Iraq in a parlous state - no law, no order, no security - so it's no surprise that someone has stepped in to provide these things (as the Taliban did in Afghanistan). Their brand of law and order is abhorrent, but for the people living there it is the only one they've got, and when they realise the cost of it it is already too late. Syria is a basket-case (at least that isn't our fault) and the lack of control has led to organised groups like [them] easily taking control from rag-tag bands of rebels.

What can we do? We can stop getting into bed with the kinds of people who support them (yes, Saudi, that's you I'm talking about). We have to find a way to cut off their funding - bombing [them] isn't helping, clearly, and there doesn't appear to be a clear game plan as to how we will know when they're "beaten" (which, alas, will not happen so long as we go at the thing the way we do).

We need to stop thinking of [them] as a regular force (i.e. a national army) and start treating [them] as a gang of thugs. Kitson's "Gangs & Counter Gangs" and "Low Intensity Operations" should be on the shelves of anyone thinking about how to defeat [them] militarily - it's expensive, difficult, and dangerous, and it doesn't get any headlines (which to my mind is what war ought to be, rather than the glamorous image portrayed by the people who run things these days) - the premise is that through intelligence gathering, infiltration, and targeting operations designed to destabilise the gang, it collapses from the inside. If you attack it from the outside then all it does is strengthen it.

Not thugs highly organised. Exploiting loopholes yes. Every Empire starts somewhere

rien wrote: I read that French media have taken to calling them "Daesh", which apparently enrages the fuckers because it's a dirty word or something. It's a good start.

It's simply an acronym of the Arabic version of "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria". It's been favoured by the French and the Iranian president-actor also uses it on twitter. If it annoys the bearded lunatics, all the better.

Any kind of appeasement towards these fuckers is misguided. However, military action, while an essential element, cannot dissolve this movement on its own. I've read recently somewhere (can't be bothered to look it up now), that IS essentially draws from three sources, each of which needs a different approach to dry it up:

1) Western (and some other regions) criminals and psychopaths, who go there for the thrill of killing, raping and looting, and who drag along a couple naive Jihad-romanticists,
2) the 'Believers', who truly believe that the 'caliph' is a holy man, those are mostly from the Middle East and very pious,
3) disenfranchised Sunni tribes including old Saddam regime proteges, who see IS as a useful, temporary ally to shift power against Assad or the Shiite government in Iraq.

The first is our own duty. We must prevent these people from travelling to the Middle East, and from Salafists recruiting more gullible young people in mosques etc.

The second - no idea. Presumably they will only see him as holy as long as he's successful. If he starts losing, he can't be favoured by Allah, can he?

The third is probably the most difficult and requires a political solution, although, considering the long-standing enmity between ethnics and denominations there, that seems to be along the lines of wishful thinking. Maybe the moderates in Iran could help, although Iran supporting Shiite militants in Iraq probably doesn't help (they're not much better than Sunni extremists).

paint it black wrote:Not thugs highly organised. Exploiting loopholes yes. Every Empire starts somewhere

That's how they like to see themselves ... and also like "modern", I guess ... ...

But hey, they behave like apes, like pygmy chimpanzees rather ... big mouth, uh-uh-eeh-eeh and dreaming of beheading people ... phh ...

And yeah, when Father Death has given them a little power, they feel great.
But honestly - is there anything about them beyond their vengeful childish
"I am, I will - and you not" ... master & servant in extreme just like the animal (or some even higher power) says ...

Poor times, that we have to see another waste like this.

rien wrote:I don't know if "we" can really do anything, but I really like the idea of not calling them anything involving "Islam", "state", or an acronym that looks like an Egyptian goddess/drone metal band.

Fully seconded.

Being645 wrote:

paint it black wrote:Not thugs highly organised. Exploiting loopholes yes. Every Empire starts somewhere

That's how they like to see themselves ... and also like "modern", I guess ... ...

But hey, they behave like apes, like pygmy chimpanzees rather ... big mouth, uh-uh-eeh-eeh and dreaming of beheading people ... phh ...

And yeah, when Father Death has given them a little power, they feel great.
But honestly - is there anything about them beyond their vengeful childish
"I am, I will - and you not" ... master & servant in extreme just like the animal (or some even higher power) says ...

we can belittle their actions as barbaric -because they are- but there's very little else about them to belittle: they are tearing up the region in a way that nobody expected, tearing it up and burning it. the kurds who are struggling at the turkish border are saying even if they get to return there is nothing to return to...

i live in a very comfy cosy place where it is easy to just say this or that; when i try to be a proper human being and empathise it terrifies me.

barbaric -because they are-

a bit like lions and christians, a heads on spikes and english concentration camps - to the victor, the spoils and twas ever thus

the diff is this isn't just some nutters (perspective) but this is some nutters who have a clear plan and are executing it using best practice techniques

Tainter: ‘humans somehow fail to recognise situations outside the contexts in which they usually learn about them’.

I see ISIS or whatever as chickens coming home to roost. The Iraq wars have massively destabilised the entire region and created the power vacuum that they have nicely stepped into. I tell you one thing that's not helping: dropping bombs and drones on all and sundry.

It's funny (not funny) that we all have to tighten our belts and suffer under austerity measures but there's always cash for another war.

Incidentally:

Being645 wrote:But hey, they behave like apes, like pygmy chimpanzees rather ... big mouth, uh-uh-eeh-eeh and dreaming of beheading people ... phh ...

I don't think that it helps to dehumanise people like this. They're still human beings, no matter how bad their behaviour. Once you start seeing other people as not fully human, you're starting down a very dark path indeed.

paint it black wrote:barbaric -because they are-

a bit like lions and christians, a heads on spikes and english concentration camps - to the victor, the spoils and twas ever thus

the diff is this isn't just some nutters (perspective) but this is some nutters who have a clear plan and are executing it using best practice techniques

Tainter: ‘humans somehow fail to recognise situations outside the contexts in which they usually learn about them’.

oh come on ez - i respect where i think/hope you're coming from but lions and christians, heads on spikes etc are all barbaric concepts. if the perpertrators aren't nutters and have thought this out then that is even less excuse, surely?

markfiend wrote:I see ISIS or whatever as chickens coming home to roost. The Iraq wars have massively destabilised the entire region and created the power vacuum that they have nicely stepped into. I tell you one thing that's not helping: dropping bombs and drones on all and sundry.

It's funny (not funny) that we all have to tighten our belts and suffer under austerity measures but there's always cash for another war.

Incidentally:

Being645 wrote:But hey, they behave like apes, like pygmy chimpanzees rather ... big mouth, uh-uh-eeh-eeh and dreaming of beheading people ... phh ...

I don't think that it helps to dehumanise people like this. They're still human beings, no matter how bad their behaviour. Once you start seeing other people as not fully human, you're starting down a very dark path indeed.

as always (and for no other reason than he talks sense) i couldn't agree more. to be honest though, what mr fiend is saying, well ...goes without saying.
but what should we do about it though ? (and by "we" i mean the western democracies, the only "powers" we can possibly claim/pretend to have any influence over)
or more properly -what should be done about it? thus far "they" dont look like they're going to be receptive to anything short of combative annihilation (which works on everyone in the short term).

We have no political capital there, no goodwill from the Arab and Muslim world. The US (and by extension the UK) are hated for the blood shed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. I don't think the western democracies can do anything that won't make the situation worse. I think we just have to walk away.

but of course politically that is impossible. even if we are naive about what motivates political/military interventions -and i know its not about the beheading of westerners- what about the beheading of westerners?

Yeah. Good question.

here's another -and one i've not heard any fucker ask yet- what do the russians (russian state) think about this? because if keeping out of syria -a humanitarianaly justifiable cause IMHO- was reasoned through fear of mutually-assured thermo-nuclear destruction (just as certainly as that was the reason for keeping out of the whole Crimean situation if we're honest about it) then how do we get out of this one? sooner or later someone's toes are going to get trodden on. i cant believe putin is ok with it all just cuz the iranians are shitting it.

You're not exactly cheering me up here Lee

I'm inclined to agree with EB on the funding front.
After 9/11 I seem to recall statements along the lines of taking action against countries that harboured terrorists, so why not the ones that fund them too?
Heck, the UN turned the screw on Russia didn't they?
So why can't they do the same with the Arab states that fund & subsequently arm these maniacs?
Moreover, where does that cash come from?? Is it not the proceeds of sales of thick black gloopy stuff to.[drumroll]..........The West?
So who's funding who in all this?

I'm also concerned over them referring to themselves as "Islamic State".
It's like taking trolling to a whole new level in that the world is given to perceive Islam as being the root of all evil.
& I would wager it would make many genuine Muslims question their faith & loyalty to it.

The West can't simply "walk away" really. Imagine how much face they would lose & how much gloating would ensure with slogans such as "we defeated the world" & such like. It WOULD happen.

Of course, the alternative would be to pull everyone out of the region & reduce it to a glass parking lot, but I'm not sure anyone wants to go there.
Yet.

Pista wrote: It's like taking trolling to a whole new level in that the world is given to perceive Islam as being the root of all evil.

Well, in that part of the world, it certainly is.

& I would wager it would make many genuine Muslims question their faith & loyalty to it.

Nonsense.

The West can't simply "walk away" really.

Of course not. You must finish what you started or you'll look weak (see Obama) and embolden the fuckers.

They don't call themselves IS the US decided that for then

they've just cut some poor cunts head off. what the fuck. he was an aid worker. how does that justify anything. sick , sick cunts.

nowayjose wrote:

Pista wrote: It's like taking trolling to a whole new level in that the world is given to perceive Islam as being the root of all evil.

Well, in that part of the world, it certainly is.

Nice to see your usual insightful commentary.

nowayjose wrote:

Pista wrote: It's like taking trolling to a whole new level in that the world is given to perceive Islam as being the root of all evil.

Well, in that part of the world, it certainly is.

Q.E.D.