MR031 Clash of Dreams

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

After the Lorries box set earlier in the month, have just treated myself to a second early Christmas present - the first official release of Salvation's legendary shelved Merciful Release Clash of Dreams on a previously unreleased CD, also featuring the Girl Soul 12" single including the legendary 14 minute Eldritch produced psychedelic wig-out Dust Up (also previously released on CD).

If you've seen it on Discogs
(http://www.discogs.com/Salvation-Clash- ... se/6352915) but weren't at the Sallies/Skellies gigs a couple of months back, copies of the CD (featuring artwork by one Barry Briggs) can now be found at specialist retailers. I got mine from legendary Yorkshire rarities dealers Vinyl Tap (https://www.vinyltap.co.uk/catalogsearc ... r=asc#main).

[Pista]

(featuring artwork by one Barry Briggs)

Who?


Looks like another purchase on the way

[Being645]

After the Lorries box set earlier in the month, have just treated myself to a second early Christmas present - the first official release of Salvation's legendary shelved Merciful Release Clash of Dreams on a previously unreleased CD, also featuring the Girl Soul 12" single including the legendary 14 minute Eldritch produced psychedelic wig-out Dust Up (also previously released on CD).

If you've seen it on Discogs
(http://www.discogs.com/Salvation-Clash- ... se/6352915) but weren't at the Sallies/Skellies gigs a couple of months back, copies of the CD (featuring artwork by one Barry Briggs) can now be found at specialist retailers. I got mine from legendary Yorkshire rarities dealers Vinyl Tap (https://www.vinyltap.co.uk/catalogsearc ... r=asc#main).

Hihi ... ... I ordered it recently from their website ... digitally remastered but nice ... the cover art though ... ...

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Well done for managing to get it from their website - it always seems down when I go on. I saw it advertised on their FB but was beginning to despair of ever getting hold of a copy.

[Quiff Boy]

Err, hello

Yeah, we've been having a bit of trouble with the Sallies site recently

The direct link to the Sallies is shop is http://salvation83.tictail.com - that shouldn't go down

Direct link: http://salvation83.tictail.com/product/ ... -dreams-cd

Re: artwork - I worked with the band to get together the initial concepts for the sleeve, booklet, cd & tray designs but It wasn't actually me that did the final artwork. I was too busy with work so the band got one of their friends to assemble it all 0- I think it looks really good

I love the 83-84 Doktor sounds (TR-808 FTW!), and the guitars and basslines sound amazing, especially given the age of the source material!

I love it

[Being645]

Err, hello

Yeah, we've been having a bit of trouble with the Sallies site recently

The direct link to the Sallies is shop is http://salvation83.tictail.com - that shouldn't go down

Direct link: http://salvation83.tictail.com/product/ ... -dreams-cd

I love the 83-84 Doktor sounds (TR-808 FTW!), and the guitars and basslines sound amazing, especially given the age of the source material!

I love it

I love it too, ... I already loved the download version of some time ago (but I've lost it ...)

Re: artwork - I worked with the band to get together the initial concepts for the sleeve, booklet, cd & tray designs but It wasn't actually me that did the final artwork. I was too busy with work so the band got one of their friends to assemble it all 0- I think it looks really good

Hihi ... I had wondered ... still, it was just kidding ... ...

[eastmidswhizzkid]

TR-808.

[radiojamaica]

ooh, must get me one of those...

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

I love the 83-84 Doktor sounds (TR-808 FTW!), and the guitars and basslines sound amazing, especially given the age of the source material!

I love it

Totally agree, and this is a must-have for any fan of early TSOM, a whole album of Eldritch produced and Doktor Avalanche driven early 80s goth.
Probably the most important TSOM related release since the Remastered and Expanded FALAA and Floodland in 2006. Well done to all who played a part in getting this released.

[robertzombie]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

[Being645]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

You still got the download version of last year or the year before?

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

You still got the download version of last year or the year before?

It's still available at DCR I think if anyone wants to compare. I think we all bow to @RZ when it comes to discussing the sonic qualities of various pressings though.

[Being645]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

You still got the download version of last year or the year before?

It's still available at DCR I think if anyone wants to compare. I think we all bow to @RZ when it comes to discussing the sonic qualities of various pressings though.

Thanks ... ... both versions have their advantages ... ...

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Good though Clash of Dreams is, as I said in the OP, the real treasure here is the first digital release of Dust Up, memorably described as "the guys pissing around in the studio " by chief Sallies apologist @QB elsewhere on HL but which I have previously awarded much greater significance http://sistersfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/dust-up.html

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

Have played Clash of Dreams loads over the past fortnight and on my cheap audio equipment and car CD player it sounds great alongside most other recordings of that era. The Doktor is rightly seemingly very high in the mix throughout and the whole package (including the sleeve notes presumably by Danny) is excellent. Am just so pleased that this has finally been given an official release.

[robertzombie]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

Have played Clash of Dreams loads over the past fortnight and on my cheap audio equipment and car CD player it sounds great alongside most other recordings of that era. The Doktor is rightly seemingly very high in the mix throughout and the whole package (including the sleeve notes presumably by Danny) is excellent. Am just so pleased that this has finally been given an official release.

It's great that it's out and, as I mentioned, it seems the tapes were well preserved. However, if one compares the remastered Girlsoul tracks with the original 12", it's clear that the dynamics of the original version have been obliterated in favour of heavy handed compression. I just think the 12" tracks sound so much better without the ~6 decibels of dynamic range compression, and I predict that the original CoD masters sound just as good.

No offence, but a car isn't really the best place to judge sound quality

When I'm home I'll prepare a short clip from the 12" for comparison

[Quiff Boy]

The tapes are obviously in good condition, it's such a shame that someone compressed the bejesus out of the recordings before pressing to CD. Compared to the respectful mastering on SGWBM, these similarly produced tracks have come out bloated and painfully revisionist sounding

Have played Clash of Dreams loads over the past fortnight and on my cheap audio equipment and car CD player it sounds great alongside most other recordings of that era. The Doktor is rightly seemingly very high in the mix throughout and the whole package (including the sleeve notes presumably by Danny) is excellent. Am just so pleased that this has finally been given an official release.

It's great that it's out and, as I mentioned, it seems the tapes were well preserved. However, if one compares the remastered Girlsoul tracks with the original 12", it's clear that the dynamics of the original version have been obliterated in favour of heavy handed compression. I just think the 12" tracks sound so much better without the ~6 decibels of dynamic range compression, and I predict that the original CoD masters sound just as good.

No offence, but a car isn't really the best place to judge sound quality

When I'm home I'll prepare a short clip from the 12" for comparison

@ Rob: I suspect there's only you and Izzy that would care, tbh

[robertzombie]

Regardless...

I just needledropped Girlsoul from the Merciful Release 12" (MRX 025) and compared it with its remastered counterpart on the 2014 Clash of Dreams CD. Wow, what a difference! The vinyl presentation has so much more life in it compared to the CD remaster, loads more room for the instruments to move, and much more space and separation. Eldritch gave us a great mix with punch, dynamic range, and a reasonable amount of depth. The most intriguing aspect of this song is the way in which, on the 12" single, it gets louder and louder as the piece progresses, with each instrument piling on an additional layer of sinister repetition to draw the listener in (or perhaps repel them).

Alas, this technique is utterly lost on the remaster due to the incredible amount of dynamic range compression utilised by the mastering engineer. The needledrop has a crest factor of 13 decibels, whilst the remaster has a crest factor of just 6. That's a whole 7 decibels of dynamic range reduction on the remaster!

This level of reduction is easily understood by glancing at the waveforms. Needledrop on top, remaster on the bottom...





On the needledrop, note the gradually bulging waveform at 1, 2, 3, and 4 minutes. Then look at the remaster, completely gone - everything is the same volume. The result, when you actually listen to the remaster in direct comparison to the original, is that - on the remaster - as the instruments pile in between 3 and 4 minutes, the sound becomes rougher and less defined as the instruments fight for space under constricting compression. Whereas, on the original, Eldritch leaves plenty of room for the instruments to pop up unobstructed.

Flicking back and forth between the two versions reveals another drawback to the remaster. As a result of all this compression, the kick drum loses some of its impact. It sounds blunt in comparison to the original. In addition, the lead vocal doesn't soar quite so highly as it does on the original - it is restricted, breathless.

I've uploaded two identical one minute clips, one from the needledrop and one from the remaster, of the crucial section starting at 2:30 mins where the song transitions from its slow burn towards its busy finale. I've level matched the remaster to the needledrop so that listeners can swap freely between the two recordings and hear the differences without having to adjust the volume. You might find it easier to hear the differences on headphones, but once you notice them you won't be able to ignore them.

Clips: https://www.sendspace.com/file/hj7m9f

Here are the crest factor (aka Dynamic Range) readings for the whole CD:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: C:\Users\Music\iTunes\iTunes Music\Salvation\Clash Of Dreams [2014 Expanded Edition]\
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR6 -0.10 dB -7.88 dB 01 The October Hour.wav
DR10 -0.10 dB -11.33 dB 02 Clash Of Dreams.wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -8.83 dB 03 Jessica's Crime.wav
DR6 -0.10 dB -7.46 dB 04 Burning On.wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -8.39 dB 05 No Return.wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -9.05 dB 06 Sea Of Dreams.wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -8.90 dB 07 Dust Up.wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -8.81 dB 08 Evelyn.wav
DR6 -0.10 dB -7.54 dB 09 Girlsoul [12_ Version].wav
DR7 -0.10 dB -8.44 dB 10 The October Hour (Now).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR7

==============================================================================================

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Wow, thanks for that detailed explanation @rz. Whilst I'm with @QB that it doesn't affect my own enjoyment of CoD, your explanation of 's skill as a producer on the original of Girlsoul is fascinating. The extended dynamic range of the title track of CoD (presumably at best effect in that wonderful three minute instrumental ending) possibly partly explains why it's my favourite track on the EP. At the risk of giving you more work, have you sonically compared the two versions of Jessica's Crime (ie AE and WH produced) from this perspective ? I for one (in fact, probably just me on reflection) would be interested in the result.

[robertzombie]

Wow, thanks for that detailed explanation @rz. Whilst I'm with @QB that it doesn't affect my own enjoyment of CoD, your explanation of 's skill as a producer on the original of Girlsoul is fascinating. The extended dynamic range of the title track of CoD (presumably at best effect in that wonderful three minute instrumental ending) possibly partly explains why it's my favourite track on the EP. At the risk of giving you more work, have you sonically compared the two versions of Jessica's Crime (ie AE and WH produced) from this perspective ? I for one (in fact, probably just me on reflection) would be interested in the result.

Yes, it's weird that the title track retains its dynamic range. A mastering error perhaps? Imagine if the rest of the CD were that good!

Regarding Jessica's Crime: I'd be happy to analyse it but I'm not sure which versions you're referring to. I have the one included on the CD discussed here, and I think I also have a version from a Salvation "hits" CD. Is that what you mean?

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Regarding Jessica's Crime: I'd be happy to analyse it but I'm not sure which versions you're referring to. I have the one included on the CD discussed here, and I think I also have a version from a Salvation "hits" CD. Is that what you mean?

That is indeed the version, but unfortunately the CD was remastered by the same guy in the same studio as CoD (albeit way back in 1996) so it may have the same issue. It was originally the band's second release (ie the next after Girlsoul) and was released on Si Denbigh's Batfish Incorporated label, and is a different recording produced by That Guitarist. I have the 7" in the garage somewhere, a very well-played copy back in t'day.

[robertzombie]

So, David Beevers did the remastering on three Salvation CDs? Hunger Days (1997), The Complete Collection (2005), and Clash of Dreams (2014).

That's interesting, because I have absolutely no problem with the mastering of either of the first two discs. You can see their dynamic range readings here: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list? ... ion&album=. Interestingly, Girlsoul appears on the 2005 compilation (released, arguably, at the height of the 'loudness war') and, whilst it doesn't sound as good as the original 12" and still suffers from some of the compression problems mentioned earlier, it's a far better digital representation of the song than what is given to us on the 2014 CD.

I don't think it would be possible for me to accurately compare Eldritch's Jessica's Crime with Hussey's, mainly because, as far as I know, we only have two digital renderings of Eldritch's version and both are too flawed to comment analytically on (one being the tape bootleg, the other being the sonically compromised 2014 remaster).

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Interesting. In case anyone is unfamiliar with the released (ie WH produced) version of Jessica's Crime, there is a rip from the 7" available here http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KKSfFkaWeg which has an impressive dynamic range from starting with the plaintive viola building up to full-on prime era Sallies. Still prefer the version, though.