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Religion? What is it good for?

Posted: 07 May 2015, 19:10
by Johnny Rev 7.0
Not an inflammatory topic, so all you Mods can stand down now. :wink:

This week I've had student Hagar working with me. The full-length sleeves, on a just above the knees dress (different each day), accesorised by the trousers and the Hijab. She looked so pretty very day. She's Egpytian-born (so knows how to do those Cleopatra eyes) and moved to Germany when she was nine.

And yes! We had the religious conversations. Then we kept apologising to each other for our beliefs. Then we had the Muslim fashion-style conversation (depending on how Islamic - her words, not mine) which was really, really interesting.

A very open and honest girl who truly believes in Allah/God. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was a very positive experience for me to meet her. We're now chatting on WhatsApp. :notworthy:

Any other stories to tell? About someone you initially perceived as "different" who turned out to be wonderful? I'm sure the dam is beginning to burst as I speak... :kiss:

Posted: 07 May 2015, 19:18
by eastmidswhizzkid
religion is control. nothing more, nothing less.

now belief....well it's up to you what you believe (most of the time...some people dont get a chance to make an informed decision) and spirtuality is between you and your god/entity/fairy/chaos.

but religion is control. end of. [/my opinion]

Posted: 07 May 2015, 19:32
by Johnny Rev 7.0
I totally agree Lee (being an atheist myself) but it was fascinating to have the Darwin/God discussion with someone who truly believes. That's the point I was trying to make. Maybe I worded my OP wrong. :kiss:

Posted: 07 May 2015, 21:16
by nowayjose
Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote: but it was fascinating to have the Darwin/God discussion with someone who truly believes.
Those are usually rather tiring, and lead to nowhere. But I'm glad you've had a different experience.

Posted: 08 May 2015, 02:16
by EvilBastard
TiC response: well, it's not bad if your idea of a Friday afternoon's fun is nailing a Jew to a couple of bits of wood.

Seriously, though - whenever I go to places where there is either a state-mandated religion, or where there is an overwhelming majority who believe in the same one, I'm always refreshed at the extent to which some peoples' religious beliefs inform everything they do, as distinct from where I live where the belief seems to be a "public" thing while what they do in private has seemingly no bearing on what they believe.

Maybe it's to do with the accessibility of the thing - Christianity in particular sets the clergy apart from the laity (more so with catholicism and the use of latin in the mass), while with something like Islam pretty much anyone can become an Imam - you don't have to be particularly holy, or devout, you just have to have a deep understanding of the Word and more importantly the spirit of the Word in its entirety (versus the people who take 2 lines of scripture and use it as a basis for Unpleasantness). Mosque is not just where you go to pray - it's the hub around which your whole life revolves. You go there to meet friends, to mediate disputes, to discuss business, to be fed if you're hungry, to take sick animals, to go to school if your parents can't afford to send you to a state school - it's a community centre as well as a place to gather to worship. It's accessible in a way that churches aren't today.

Buddhism is similarly holistic - most people in Buddhist countries spend time in a monastery, either for schooling or for a month or so every year. The faith is part of who they are, rather than something that they do. You could argue that it's self-interest, a desire to build merit for the next life, but there never seems to be a sense of duty to it - this is Who I Am, no-one's forcing me.

I've never met a muslim or a buddhist who looked down on me for not belonging to the faith (in contrast to the way I am perceived by some christians), and not one of them has ever been hesitant to explain what they believe, not in an "evangelical" sense, but just in a sort of "if you understand me, and I understand you, then we have an understanding" sort of thing.

I've met wonderful people in these places. Before I went to Syria I'll admit, I was a bit trepidatious, I'd heard Things - similarly in Iran - but everybody, from government officials to imams to the nice chap in Damascus who showed me where to buy the Hizb'Allah flags and the posters of Uncle Hassan, were unstintingly hospitable, friendly, non-threatening, non-hostile, to someone they had never met and had no reason to be nice to. When I asked why, the answer was always along the same lines - "it's how we live, it's what we believe - is it not the same in your country?"

I think it's great that you and Hagar have made a connection. You start with uncertainty, a bit of fear (and I'm sure she's had her share of abuse as a muslim living in Germany), but if your experience shows us anything it is that...well, people are the same. When you stop to talk to them, make an effort to see things from their perspective, you find out that no matter where you're from, or your skin colour, or faith, you have much more in common than you have differences. You and Hagar made an effort, and bingo, you've got a new friend. How awesome is that?! 8)

It's when people put up barriers - I won't vote for you because you don't believe what I do, you can't understand me because you're not (whatever I am), I won't talk to you because you won't accept what I say without questioning it - that's when you get the problems. When people are too quick to perceive a slight, when they fly off the handle instead of stopping to think, "hold on, maybe he said/thinks that because he actually doesn't know any better. Maybe I can help him out, help him understand, so maybe the next time he sees me or someone like me he won't do/say/think that", you get these deeply-entrenched positions which divide us as people.

I don't have a faith - brought up CofE but found the whole "you mustn't question God's plan - you don't know what he's thinking, and you can't ever understand it, so hush up and be thankful that part of his plan was that your old man should die before you were 18" a bit bothersome. But I'd convert to Islam tomorrow (except for the whole no drinking, no fornicating, thing), if it meant that I could spend my retirement sitting in cool marble and tile mosques with soaring ceilings and incredible acoustics, with fountains and gardens in the courtyard, surrounded by ordinary everyday people for whom "faith" means community, brotherhood, charity, helping people.

Posted: 08 May 2015, 13:14
by Norman Hunter
I've been able to get on with both Man Utd and Chelsea fans. Now that's crossing the divide.

Posted: 08 May 2015, 13:42
by eastmidswhizzkid
:lol:

Posted: 08 May 2015, 15:57
by markfiend
I think the one major advantage that a faith (any faith) has over atheism is the community. One common refrain is "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby"; well when do you ever get meetings of the non-stamp-collectors' club?

I think this is especially true of the Muslim community; in the West they're a minority that's widely despised, it's hardly surprising that they tend to cling to each other in a fashion that may seem exclusive to outsiders.

Posted: 08 May 2015, 16:48
by Johnny Rev 7.0
EvilBastard wrote:I think it's great that you and Hagar have made a connection. You start with uncertainty, a bit of fear...
Definitely. Possibly ignorance on my part as well. :oops:
EvilBastard wrote:... (and I'm sure she's had her share of abuse as a muslim living in Germany), but if your experience shows us anything it is that...well, people are the same. When you stop to talk to them, make an effort to see things from their perspective, you find out that no matter where you're from, or your skin colour, or faith, you have much more in common than you have differences.
:notworthy: Which was probably the point I was trying to make, but you made it much more eloquently than me. Can I employ you as a ghostwriter on HL? How much do you charge? :lol:
EvilBastard wrote:You and Hagar made an effort, and bingo, you've got a new friend. How awesome is that?! 8)
Extremely awesome! I know I've worked with different faiths before, but they were never as obvious (if that's the right word) but maybe it's me. Maybe I was insular before, but then presented with Hagar I had to adapt, and rethink. And educate myself. 8)

Maybe my original post title confused people, but I was just posting out of "Wow!" and just wanted to share my very positive experience with my new Muslim friend. :D

Posted: 08 May 2015, 17:34
by Johnny Rev 7.0
markfiend wrote:I think the one major advantage that a faith (any faith) has over atheism is the community. One common refrain is "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby"; well when do you ever get meetings of the non-stamp-collectors' club?

I think this is especially true of the Muslim community; in the West they're a minority that's widely despised, it's hardly surprising that they tend to cling to each other in a fashion that may seem exclusive to outsiders.
But it's not exclusive Mark. Scratch beneath the surface (or have the experience fall in your lap - not literally) and we're all the same. Let's call it different ideas, about things.

Hagar turned up today (spontaneously) with her big brother in tow... nice guy, who then needed to use the gents, and the convo went:

J: (perplexed, scared): "Why is your big brother here?"
N: (just staring at me)
N: (penny dropping): "Now you're being stupid. I told him you were a nice guy. I told him you had a big heart. I told him you educated me, and respected me. And you are now my friend. He wanted to meet you. That's all."

:notworthy:

Posted: 08 May 2015, 19:06
by markfiend
Yeah I think I've phrased that badly, it's not really what I meant. I think the key word in what I wrote is "seems" - once you get past (what I think is a natural) suspicion of non-Muslims, people have a lot more similarities than differences.

One random conversation I had a while back with a cow-orker:

Sadat: "I'm bloody starving"!
Me: "Oh, yeah, it's Ramadan isn't it? How's your fasting going?"

To which Sadat expressed amazement that a non-Muslim would even know when Ramadan fell that year.

Posted: 08 May 2015, 19:33
by nowayjose
Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:J: (perplexed, scared): "Why is your big brother here?"
N: (just staring at me)
N: (penny dropping): "Now you're being stupid. I told him you were a nice guy. I told him you had a big heart. I told him you educated me, and respected me. And you are now my friend. He wanted to meet you. That's all."
Dude. Watch out.

Posted: 09 May 2015, 01:18
by Johnny Rev 7.0
No need. I'm not American.

Posted: 09 May 2015, 01:49
by eastmidswhizzkid
Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:
Maybe my original post title confused people, but I was just posting out of "Wow!" and just wanted to share my very positive experience with my new Muslim friend. :D
and on the strength of that, nice one mate. :notworthy:

like the late great Rik Mayall said (after others i'm sure) "Love IS the Answer."

Posted: 09 May 2015, 15:04
by AlixJH
Religion is sometimes very sore subject, often funny, toy life, world theater. I used to believe in God because my grandparents believed... when you're afraid, for themselves or for someone, you want immediate rescue, more often for others, as in my case. But you can only pray for the people. To believe in their desire to preserve their health, their lives. But if they do not find the strength, you can always help..

God is in every. And all these religions are knee-deep in blood. Religion was created in the image and likeness of man and can be evil and good, just like the people who invented it. One big bad joke.

I believe in everything that I see with my own eyes, all that feel and can imagine. I believe in the birth, believe in life and believe in death, and in the power/energy, which helps on all counts. This is all I have. It's all about what others have.